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American companies fucked around, and now they're finding out.
And now the outsourcers become the... Shit! Did we get economically fucked into being cheap labor???
Speaking as a remote developer, we are not cheap labor.
Asking seriously: are plural-you not cheap compared to local markets or compared to where you're employed? Also, is there much difference?
Secondly (thirdly?), I've kinda assumed that hiring an American to work remotely means middling salary, little to no expectations to provide benefits, and extra work-hours on extra work-days when employees in your own country are either off contract or on holiday. Are these assumptions wildly inaccurate?
For software, if you’re used to big tech wages, you’re not taking less than $180k base. RSUs are probably somewhere like $400k initial grant, anywhere from 25k-100k yearly refresher. US engineers (good ones) are the furthest from cheap.
Oh cool! That's good to know! I'm gonna go cry into my 5-digit salary now...
Not saying that's not the case for you, but I used to work for one of those foreign companies paying for US outsourcing labor.
@thefartographer@lemm.ee has more of a point than this answer implies. The rates you mentioned, tend to be gross rates the outsourcing company makes (and there's a growing number of them, compared to freelancers - which often aren't really an option for various, frequently silly, reasons). If there is any stock comp, it usually does not pass through to the employee, while outsorcing company stock is, well... Outsorcing company stock (with some notable exceptions).
All in all, things aren't so rosy all around, and they're only getting worse. Takes some mean salesmanship to seel those rates nowadays, and it won't work forever.
Don't get me wrong, US software engineers are great - one of only 2 locations I go for these days (3 if it's academic work). But this is a bad path to go down, and no amount of marketing is gonna change that in the long run (talking generations here).
The trick is don't work for an outsourcing company?
That feels like saying "the trick is don't sell on Amazon." Unless people already know you, where else can they find you? The market might not be there yet, but eventually, saturation is saturation.
Don't be a contractor. Unless you're unusually skilled or have a very exotic and rare niche that you're an expert in then being a contractor is a step down for most people in the software field imo. Look for direct hire.
Yes. Assuming that you can actually find clients and that those clients don't have policies against hiring contractors directly (a lot of the big ones do). Those seem like low barriers to entry but the majority of developers don't meet them (I used to be one, and most of my friend circle still is), much as LinkedIn would have us believe otherwise.
Solutions for individuals tend not to work for large groups (I got lucky, you might just be that good). These changes point to a systemic shift which could work out for the better but I really don't think it will.
The truth is, except for niche requirements and expertise, one US engineer is not as good as 4 Eastern European devs (and I could get you those for the same price while making a hefty margin). Only the best are needed, the rest are competing in a market that doesn't even cover their living expenses, and they can't even negotiate as hard because they don't have as many local jobs as alternatives. Moving down the value chain is never a good sign. Eventually you capture less profit no matter how you slice it.
There’s a remarkable difference in the quality of apps delivered from major tech companies using US developers and apps from contracted employees in places like Eastern Europe. You get what you pay for.
Having said that, I’m sure that there are good developers everywhere in the world. I’m not sure that excellence in the field is as widely rewarded as it is in the US, so why should the quality be high?
Speaking from experience, those are business practice problems, not technical competence issues.
You do get what you pay for, but top line (counting the middlemen on both sides) Eastern European outsorcing rates are only about ~30% lower than US rates these days, and people still think of it as a cheap labor destination. So companies give you 25% allocation while pretending to give you 100% and such to make the math work out. Lots of shady business practices like that + outsorcing companies don't really give a damn about your product. I imagine you're thinking startups since we're talking "apps" here, and the industry gameplan there has been to bleed them dry for a while now unfortunately.
But if you're outstaffing and can actually manage the talent yourself, trust me these guys have no issue going toe-to-toe with US devs.
You bring up a valid point about why though (despite bad comp). My guess is free education up to and including your PhD, general technical inclination, differences in values (a lot of them straight up refuse to move or change their lifestyle for 4x the money for instance, almost inconceivable in the US). I do wonder if that will last though.
Of course it really depends on who you hire, there are also shit developers everywhere and you can get majorly screwed if you don't know what you're doing, and that becomes way more likely the moment you're hiring abroad (information asymmetry is a removed).
Are you employed by a company based in the US?
American companies are hiring remote workers from other countries with lower wages
Only top tier talent. Mid tier, sometimes. Low tier, hardly ever.
About 90% of my firm's workload is now international and for premium rates. Eventually, if the American geopolitical instability continues to rise, we (the top tier talent) are just going to leave. You can make your dollars while chilling on a Croatian beach front villa just as easily as you can while living in a one bedroom studio in a state that bans abortion, clean air, clean water, books, etc.
I'm mid-tier talent right now in the US. Give me 5 years, and I'm getting the fuck out to live in Europe. The US just doesn't represent my values anymore. And if I can live just as comfortably elsewhere, I'm going to do it.
I’m curious what separates a top-tier talent individual from a mid-tier or low-tier talent.
Their Onlyfans isn't free
Capability, skill set, and proof of work
Yeah, I understand the proofs from a hypothetical perspective what I don’t understand is the measures. How can someone claim they are top-tier talent when there is no defined criteria for making such a claim? This sounds like HR-talk, not industry standard.
It varies wildly, but at the end of the day its about skills being rare and valuable. People with rare skills, who can prove they have those skills, and can consistently perform complex/difficult tasks and be reliable are what I would consider “top tier”
Asking for some specific defined standard is being pedantic. The standard is being capable of things that others are not, and that’s true across any industry. Each one will have its own measurements (certifications, work portfolios, references, etc.) by which those are defined.
I don’t think it’s pedantic if someone claims to be top-tier and they have no standard by which to weigh that claim, it’s like saying I’m certified. What am I certified in and how is that certification even relevant to the conversation at hand?
I could claim I am top-tier talent, but so can anyone else. That means anyone and everyone who does difficult work or is capable of difficult work falls in that category.
What am I certified in and how is that certification even relevant to the conversation at hand?
This is a silly question
That means anyone and everyone who does difficult work or is capable of difficult work falls in that category.
You’re getting there
I've done a few rounds of selecting resumes and interviewing for jobs at my company and there can be pretty wild differences between candidates. Some people just seem like they never stop. They do well in school, have a bunch of personal projects, work a bunch of jobs, and show an interest and drive in what they do. And I'm mostly looking at students for intern roles or recent grads for entry-level engineering roles. Once you start looking to fill more senior positions, work experience can vary even more wildly.
Part of it is how skilled they are at making a resume or CV and spinning everything they've done into the best possible light, or even just remembering/knowing to list all relevant skills. Like a lot of people know excel, but I could only award points to those who listed it on their resume.
Top-tier would be a candidate that matches all of the need to haves and matches most of the like to haves for the position. They've got relevant education, sometimes beyond the minimum requirements. They've got work experience, sometimes decades of it in leadership roles. They might have papers published in their field. They might be names that you've heard of before seeing their resume.
And on the flip side, there's some awful candidates out there that wouldn't be selected even if it means leaving the position vacant for now. Like people who learned something well enough to pass their tests (assuming they aren't just lying outright about having the skill) but can't answer basic practical questions about it. In one interview (remote), the guy obviously had a friend helping him answer questions (you could hear the whispering, it was pretty funny) but even his friend had no clue.
Damn right, fuck all this unnecessary and forced in office bullshit. Fuck around lose talent.
Hahaha what tha fuck are you talking about?
this post was submitted on 27 Jan 2024
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