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Crawford won't answer my calls. (ttrpg.network)
submitted 8 months ago by ahdok@ttrpg.network to c/rpgmemes@ttrpg.network
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The rules, in this case are pretty clear. The spell never mentions mirrors or reflections, it “summons illusory duplicates." Spell names aren’t indicative of their mechanical effect. See Chill Touch.

There’s also vampire wizard statblock that has Mirror Image on its spell list.

It would be funny if the spell just failed though.

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[-] itsnicodegallo@lemm.ee 56 points 8 months ago

I genuinely appreciate the technical breakdown. 💜

[-] UnrepententProcrastinator@lemmy.ca 51 points 8 months ago

If anobody feels like a variation on a known image macro:

[-] ahdok@ttrpg.network 33 points 8 months ago

I'll make a nice transparancied version and post it :)

[-] Revan343@lemmy.ca 14 points 8 months ago

You and Khonsi truly are treasures.

[-] Zorsith@lemmy.blahaj.zone 43 points 8 months ago

But do their mirror images show in a mirror, as the mirror image itself isn't a vampire?

[-] reinei@lemmy.world 24 points 8 months ago

Now I want to know wether the rules allow you to stand perfectly inside your mirror image (don't have a 5th ed./any other D&D ed. rulebook to check myself, sorry)... Because if it does (without going all wavy or otherwise distorting) and it casts a reflection this could be a fun "find the hidden vampire in this banquet hall with mirrors" scenario!

[-] ahdok@ttrpg.network 19 points 8 months ago

I think the illusory duplicates made by the magic are designed to "move around in your space" to make it hard to tell which one is actually you - the purpose of the spell is to make you harder to hit, so it's behaviour probably works to let that happen. It'd also be very difficult to get away with it in a social setting because you have to cast the spell first, it makes four duplicates, and they don't last that long...

Now on the other hand... Trickery Cleric "invoke duplicity" allows you to control the movements of the duplicate (which is incorporeal), so it might be possible to hide it inside you if you were really practiced. Konsi sometimes summons it in her exact position while standing still, then uses her second channel divinity slot to turn invisible and run away.

It'll only give you cover for a moment, but if they're doing some sort of "check every visitor for vampirism" check on the door, it might get you past.

[-] ahdok@ttrpg.network 12 points 8 months ago

...All of this is pretty sketchy though, it's definitely pushing the limits of what these spells or abilities are intended for, and "having your image move around inside you perfectly so nobody notices" would require an extreme level of control that I imagine most, if not all casters wouldn't have.

If we're trying to design an NPC vampire to foil the mirror check, it's probably better to have them use a custom spell or magic item that's explicitly for this purpose than to try and repurpose an existing spell to do it. "This amulet creates an illusory duplicate of you that fills the same space as your body. When you turn invisible, the illusion remains visible and moves in a random direction away from you" for example.

This approach has a lot of advantages I think.

  1. If you let NPCs do it, then PCs can do it.
  2. It doesn't feel like you're creatively abusing the rules to give NPCs an advantage
  3. When the PCs beat the vampire and get the treasure they get a lightbulb moment when they realize what happened
  4. The players get an interesting niche treasure out of it they can come up with clever uses for later.
[-] uid0gid0@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago

There is a spell for these types of shenanigans and it's called Mislead

[-] ahdok@ttrpg.network 2 points 8 months ago

It's a classic. I wish the movement didn't require your full action though - the spell is level 5.

[-] FilterItOut@thelemmy.club 3 points 8 months ago

What edition are we in? Because "I roll to disbelieve!" tells me that an illusion is all in the mind... >.>

<.<

[-] Flushmaster@ttrpg.network 3 points 8 months ago

My ruling would be that the vampire does not appear in the mirror but the illusions do. If someone got creative I would also rule that if you aim your attacks based on looking at a reflection you would be attacking a single target with full concealment (normal attack roll with disadvantage) and not rolling to see if you hit an illusion because you're aiming specifically at where they aren't.

[-] DmMacniel@feddit.de 21 points 8 months ago

I sense a new Faelys meme template.

[-] Zehzin@lemmy.world 18 points 8 months ago

If you ask my opinion only silver mirrors don't show vampires

[-] Archpawn@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago

That's based on the idea that vampires are weak to silver, right? In D&D, they don't seem to have that weakness. It should be werewolves, devils, wights, jackalweres, wraiths and night hags that don't have reflections in silver mirrors. Also, the mirror in equipment is steel. The only way to get a silver mirror is to learn Sanctuary and have a component pouch.

[-] Zehzin@lemmy.world 4 points 8 months ago

I'll mention that on my next strongly worded email to WotC

[-] ahdok@ttrpg.network 2 points 8 months ago

Well, you could just buy one.

[-] Setarkus@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

I've read something along the lines of it being because silver is a "noble metal" (or something like that) and vampires are unholy/foul creatures, somehow making them not be reflected by silver mirrors

[-] TerrificTadpole@lemmy.world 5 points 8 months ago

I see that hair curl! A lot of time and care went into that. Very nice!

[-] ahdok@ttrpg.network 4 points 8 months ago

She likes to pull her hair back out of her face, and wrap it around a bone to hold it firm - but some of the front tufts always escape.

[-] Archpawn@lemmy.world 4 points 8 months ago

Is there a rule that vampires don't have reflections? I can't find it, but I don't have the books.

[-] ahdok@ttrpg.network 2 points 8 months ago

It's a common trope in media and fantasy lore, Quite a few tropes of vampires are listed in the flavour text, rather than the statblock, and this is one of them.

[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I suppose it depends on whether applying the mirror to a vampire with mirror image counts as an "attack." It is an action that functions similarly to a divination spell. If the Vampire casts Mirror Image, and then you try to "target" the vampire with the mirror, there's a chance you target one of the mirror images, and it would be visible in the mirror.

Vampires also don't cast a shadow, and Mirror Images are identical images, so none of them would cast a shadow. So while the mirror trick might not work against a vampire who has cast Mirror Image, you would be able to use any light source, including ambient light, to check if any of the images are casting a shadow.

[-] ahdok@ttrpg.network 4 points 8 months ago

I don't I can make a good case for "looking in a mirror" to use the "attack" rules. If it's an attack you'd have to make an attack roll (if you're not making an attack roll, it's not an attack.)

Likely, if there was a d20 roll involved, it'd be a perception check.

[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

You're not wrong about the RAW, but it's a point of contention for the RAI on how Mirror Image affects non-attacks that target the caster.

My feeling is that using a mirror on an enemy is like an attack for the purposes of interpreting the RAI on Mirror Image. Mirror Image only specifies what happens if the caster is attacked (the false images have a chance of being targeted instead) but there are Divination spells and some offensive spells like Magic Missile that require no attack roll. Some people interpret that to mean that those spells ignore Mirror Image, but that argument doesn't track for me.

Anything that requires targeting an individual by sight should be affected, even if it isn't technically an "attack" per the rules. It should be up to the DM to decide. The description of Mirror Image makes it clear that it confuses anyone who can see it, making it difficult to determine which image is the real one. It describes specifically how to calculate attacks, but it also doesn't specifically say that non-attacks are unaffected.

If you use that interpretation, it would suggest that pointing a mirror is like targeting the character who has cast Mirror Image. You would have to roll a d20 and compare that to 6, 8, or 10 depending on the number of mirror images. Perception can't see through Mirror Image.

You might see no reflection (which would confirm they don't cast a reflection), or you might see the false image's reflection (which would be ambiguous).

This all assumes you're using a steel mirror or similar item to see the reflection. If there is a mirror in the room, you would be able to see more of the room, and presumably you'd be able to tell if the caster had a reflection by comparing the number of reflections you see to the number of duplicates in the room with you.

[-] uid0gid0@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago

Mirror image specifies that it blocks attacks that are targeted at the caster. Magic missile has no "attack" component, it automatically hits. Mirror image also ignores AoE damage. The specific wording is "A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it. It ignores all other damage and effects."
We just had this discussion at our table on Saturday.

[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

This is one of the issues I have with going from 3.5 to 5e. In trying to simplify the rules, they have left out details that make it ambiguous.

Here's the text of the rule from 5:

Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it’s impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates.

Then there is detail on how it affects attacks

Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell’s duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.

If you have three duplicates, you must roll a 6 or higher to change the attack’s target to a duplicate. With two duplicates, you must roll an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, you must roll an 11 or higher.

Then there is detail on how the duplicates defend:

A duplicate’s AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier. If an attack hits a duplicate, the duplicate is destroyed. A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it. It ignores all other damage and effects. The spell ends when all three duplicates are destroyed.

Then the rule ends by describing how to bypass the spell.

A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can’t see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight.

It does not say that a creature is unaffected by this spell if it is using a spell that does not use an attack roll.

Magic Missile starts with this:

You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range.

I would argue that Magic Missile relies on sight, and Mirror Image prevents you from visibly discerning which duplicate is the target. So you can't "see" which target is the creature and which is the duplicate.

I know I'm in the minority on this topic, and I'll always defer to whatever the DM decides. Most people feel that, since it doesn't explicitly include non-attack targeting, that those actions ignore Mirror Image. But I prefer to play to a common sense interpretation of the spirit of the rules. Like if a teammate tries to toss a healing potion to the Wizard, but it shatters on the ground because they threw it to one of the duplicates. Or casting any divination or enchantment that relies on sight should be affected by Mirror Image, even if there is no attack roll.

That's the logic I was extending to include applying a mirror to the target. But that's probably too far afield from RAW.

[-] ahdok@ttrpg.network 2 points 8 months ago

I'm pretty sure that the rules as intended for this one are that it just affects attacks, I'm afraid. Sage Advice repeatedly argues that the intention of wordings like this is that they don't extend to other effects.

Of course, it's perfectly fine to run your table different to sage advice. There's a lot of stuff in there that I think is rather silly, or bad design.

Were you able to see the whole space, you should be able to see the illusory duplicates fine (they're not "vampires" mechanically), but not the real vampire, so I'm in full agreement there.

this post was submitted on 18 Mar 2024
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