Opposing The Gaza Genocide While Supporting Biden Is A Dishonest, Nonsensical Position : palestine

[-] Ashyr@sh.itjust.works 19 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Because it’s him or Trump and Trump is demonstrably worse.

This article itself is deeply disingenuous calling Biden a tiny bit better on queer rights or the environment.

They’re not even in the same ballpark. Trump is a disaster for the environment, for reproductive rights, for minorities, and for the Middle East.

I would give anything for an alternative to Biden that wasn’t Trump, but pretending that voting against Biden would somehow be better for Palestine is insane.

[-] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 months ago

This article itself is deeply disingenuous calling Biden a tiny bit better on queer rights or the environment.

Yeah, the author is completely phony. Just a russian/MAGA shill.

[-] PanArab@lemmy.ml -1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

What if people stopped being afraid and voted for who they really supported instead of who they thought was more likely to win? someone like Cornel West or Jill Stein might actually win!

but pretending that voting against Biden would somehow be better for Palestine is insane.

What is worse than a president who actively supports a genocide? So at worst it will be still the same no better or worse if Trump won. At least liberals would oppose it instead of justifying it.

[-] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 months ago

What if people stopped being afraid and voted for who they really supported instead of who they thought was more likely to win? someone like Cornel West or Jill Stein might actually win!

It's two things. One is tactical voting, voting for a person who has an actual chance of winning. Neither Cornel West nor Jill Stein has a broad appeal outside far-left circles. Which brings me to my second point, people are, broadly speaking, voting for positions they support. It's a big tent party and Biden has spent his career moving around to stay in the middle of the Democratic Party.

What is worse than a president who actively supports a genocide?

A president that makes no attempt at restraining Israel. Biden might not be doing as much as many people would like, but he's doing something. The US is pressuring Israel to let more aid in, even if Israel isn't doing enough to comply. Israel has mostly held back from Rafah so far, which seems to be Biden's doing. And the direct Iran-Israel exchange has been kept to a minimum instead of an all-out war, also with US involvement. What could have escalated ended with Israel bombing a runway and Iran saying "whatever, not interested."

I simply cannot imagine Trump doing this. He has a history of being extremely deferential to Israel and Netanyahu. Think moving the US embassy to Jerusalem, scuttling the JCPOA, and in the Project 2025 document considers cutting US aid (this predated the current war). He stuck his son-in-law Jared Kushner on a mission to solve the conflict and the solution was swapping some of the West Bank's best remaining land for some desert. He loves bringing the fight to a situation. He reversed drone attack rules Obama put in place that were working to avoid civilian casualties. That is who is worse.

[-] PanArab@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Biden might not be doing as much as many people would like, but he’s doing something.

This is false. Even Reagan and Bush Sr. did more to reign in Israel than Biden ever did, they threatened to withhold aid rather than just put conditions and hope Israel abide by them, you can look this up. Instead he keeps on supplying them, putting him further right on genocide than even Reagan and Bush Sr.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 4 months ago

Biden is literally driving the world towards WW3, but all libs can do is bleat about Trump being worse. 🤡

[-] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 2 points 4 months ago

So you're saying you would prefer Trump, correct? Because if you live in the US, your choice is either Biden or Trump.

[-] PanArab@lemmy.ml -4 points 4 months ago

No, there are other choices, people have just been conditioned not to vote for them.

May I remind you that the US went through multiple 2-party systems, the current one could be replaced.

[-] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 3 points 4 months ago

My dude, not a single one of the people that has sufficient support right now in the US supports the Palestinian people to the degree I would prefer. All of them would support the Israeli genocide to one degree or another. Trump would be all gas no brakes, and would be pushing Netanyahu to nuke Gaza, and throw all the Palestinians in the West Bank into death camps. Kennedy wouldn't be a lot better. Biden is at least trying to slow Netanyahu's roll a little, even if he's still turning over funding that's been appropriated by congress (which he's both legally obligated to do, and also personally supports).

Palestine has no allies that would support cutting off all aid for Israel that would even be able to win 1% of the vote in the US. That's just the way it is, and it sucks.

On the domestic front, both Trump and Kennedy would be worse for the American people by every single metric, except for the white christian nationalist metric.

So people in the US have a choice. They can vote for the least bad candidate, and hope to minimize the damage as much as possible. Or they can not vote, and claim that they have clean hands when Trump accelerates the genocide, and starts a few new ones. Of course, not voting for the least bad candidate is effectively identical to voting for the worse candidate, but hey, as just don't tell your neighbor that you're the reason that their trans kid couldn't get medical care and ended up committing suicide.

[+] yogthos@lemmy.ml -7 points 4 months ago

The choice is not to participate in electing a genocidal maniac. It's incredible how difficult this is for some people to grasp.

[-] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 7 points 4 months ago

By failing to help elect one person, you implicitly help the other, far, far worse person get elected.

It's incredible how difficult this is for some people to grasp.

By not making a choice, you make a choice.

[-] doubtingtammy@lemmy.ml -4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

By failing to apply any political pressure to a leader participating in a genocide, you implicitly endorse the genocide.

By not applying pressure, you make a choice that you're ok with genocide

[-] wahming 1 points 4 months ago

Yes, let's apply pressure by getting a leader elected that will ACCELERATE the genocide even more than Biden. I'm sure the Palestinians will appreciate that.

[-] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 4 months ago

Supporting trump's openly genocidal agenda puts absolutely zero pressure on biden to stop his openly genocidal agenda.

[-] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 0 points 4 months ago

By attempting to apply political pressure in this manner, you sway marginal voters away from voting entirely, which results in greater harms than if you did nothing at all. By attempting to apply political pressure, when you're aware that the outcome will be reduced turnout for Democratic candidates, you're making a choice that you're okay with women in the US losing rights to healthcare and reproductive options, and saying that you don't GaF about LGBTQ+ people or any global environmental concerns.

All political choices come with tradeoffs. All actions come with consequences. The consequence here, of getting people to oppose Biden--or just not support him--will be that the speed and intensity of the genocide will increase. Trump favors more and more effective genocide, and Kennedy is a non-starter of a candidate, as is Cornell West (which is a shame, because I like West).

This is the real-life Kobayashi Maru; there is no action you can take that will have the result you want. It's not a moral failing on your part to recognize that this is not something you can control in this way, but it is a moral failing to see the negative consequences of your actions, and choosing to act regardless.

[-] sweetpotato@lemmy.ml -2 points 4 months ago

The alternative isn't going to come from the sky, you vote for it. At some point you have to realize that the lesser evil is not enough, like you have to draw the line at some point.

[-] sweetpotato@lemmy.ml -2 points 4 months ago

The alternative isn't going to come from the sky, you vote for it. At some point you have to realize that the lesser evil is not enough, like you have to draw the line at some point.

[-] Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 months ago

No third party in america has any chance. Without a full blown revolution that country will only ever have 2 options.

[-] sweetpotato@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 months ago

Things are pretty simple, like I already said the lesser evil has to not exceed some limits. If there was a duplicate of Trump running for the democrats you wouldn't vote for him lol. This genocide simply isn't that important to you to finally think that the Democrats have gone to far.

[-] sneakybells@lemmy.ml -1 points 4 months ago

Stein. She actually has the ballot access to win the electoral college. AND she's Pro-Pali.

[-] IndianaJones@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 4 months ago

When it's Biden vs Trump, I like to choose the lesser evil which is Biden. Biden is not the best president, but most definitely not the worst

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 months ago

Ah yes, best choose the polite genocider that has decorum.

[-] Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 months ago

Yes, the lesser evil. The one that at least says not to genocide instead of the one sending even more weapons and calls for a full genocide. The one that has a settlement named after him.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 4 months ago

Ah yes the one speaking with a forked tongue. Biden is literally providing the weapons for the genocide, doing political cover at the UN, and helping Israel in every way he can. But hey at least he SAYS he's against genocide!

[-] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com -1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Ah yes the one speaking with a forked tongue.

The one? lmao.

at least he SAYS he’s against genocide!

That's an improvement versus overt racism, fascism, genocide, etc.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 months ago

The fact that you think saying you're against a genocide while actively participating in one is a good thing really says all I need to know.

[-] thisismyrealname@hexbear.net 1 points 4 months ago

please explain to us how Trump or any president could possibly do worse than actively arming and funding a genocide

[-] FlaminGoku@reddthat.com 7 points 4 months ago

Bringing the genocide home.

[-] thisismyrealname@hexbear.net 6 points 4 months ago

"sure i'll vote for the genocidaire, as long as he promises not to do it to me!"

the continued existence of israel will mean the development of new methods of oppression and subjugation, first applied to the Palestinians, but then exported for use against dissenters in the United States. the cops who cracked skulls last week at Emory University and killed Tortugita were trained by Israeli police as part of the GILEE program. this shit is coming home and supporting one farcical candidate over another will not stop it.

[-] Aquilae@hexbear.net 3 points 4 months ago

So you're okay with a genocide as long as it's not happening to you.

Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds. You're just a fascist.

[-] FlaminGoku@reddthat.com 1 points 4 months ago

https://lemmy.world/post/14924219

Here you go. Guess I'm a fascist for not wanting this to happen.

[-] Aquilae@hexbear.net 1 points 4 months ago

No one's telling you to vote for one of the parties of Capital, neither the one currently committing a genocide in practice, nor the one that would commit one hypothetically.

Rather than defending Hitler because Himmler might be worse, spend that effort joining an org and doing praxis.

[-] FlaminGoku@reddthat.com 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I appreciate the idea of organizing, but you have such an infantile take on this.

Not voting means i have given up my ability to choose and i will instead end up with whomever those that did use their ability chose. I know that one of these choices will be holistically better, therefore i will vote for them.

[-] Aquilae@hexbear.net 2 points 4 months ago

Very naive take. Vocal participation in a genocidal system is endorsement of it. You can't tell people to vote for one of the parties of Capital and then tell people that actually it needs to be overthrown and think that's going to happen 5 years later.

At some point or another you just have to commit to it being "broken" (actually working as intended of course) and build your movement based entirely on the fact that it is broken and can not be supported in any way whatsoever. We're long past that point with the "lesser evil" party currently committing genocide.

Successful revolutions in the past like the October revolution have used elections primarily as a way to show the size of the movement, never by endorsing a party of Capital, and have built said movements by organizing. Endorsing a genocidal party won't stop them from committing genocide.

[-] InternetUser2012@midwest.social 2 points 4 months ago

Sending more help for the genocide, as tRump said he would do, you fucking donkey. Fuck off troll.

[-] thisismyrealname@hexbear.net 5 points 4 months ago

do you really think the already insane amount of aid Biden is sending them is holding Israel back in any way?

i'm not saying to vote for Trump, i'm saying fuck you for trying to guilt me into voting for Biden. i will not vote for a genocidaire, full stop

[-] IndianaJones@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 months ago

Then who do you vote for? (If you're willing to tell us)

[-] NewLeaf@hexbear.net 1 points 4 months ago

There won't be a Palestine for trump to destroy by November.

[-] anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net 0 points 4 months ago

tRump

get a load of this

[-] Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 months ago

Trump will do that, and has moved the embassy. They named a settlement after him because he supported them so much

[-] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 0 points 4 months ago

I wish all german instances a very get off the federation forever

[-] PanArab@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 months ago

Caitlin Johnstone speaks a truth most are not willing to hear.

[-] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

"Truths" like denying rape in urkaine?

I'm not willing to hear phony shills making cash off bootlicking, disinfo, etc.

[-] PanArab@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I haven't been following the Ukraine war, but I wrote "a truth" and not "truths", and the point stands even if she was wrong about other conflicts.

[-] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Biden is an absolute turd.

But it's worth noting that this author is a super phony russian/MAGA shill.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 4 months ago

Now try engaging with the points being made instead of using ad hominem to dismiss the argument.

[-] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

The biggest point I hear for people who genuinely need democrats to win: You need to oppose Biden the most out of anyone, because he's going to be the reason your party loses at best or turns into a second fascist party who wants takes your rights away at worst.

Downplaying a literal genocide because you care more about winning team sports is a lack of solidarity that will get you killed.

Palestine

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