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[-] prototypez9er@lemmynsfw.com 96 points 1 year ago

Chasing profit is how we got here. This shouldn't be the basis of the decision. If it's the only thing we can use to drag conservatives along though, I guess it'll have to do.

[-] TWeaK@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago

It's not about chasing profit though, it's about getting to net zero as quickly as possible using finite resources. Any money that goes to nuclear could be going to renewables, which would get us there more quickly.

[-] echo64@lemmy.world 39 points 1 year ago

This article is about profitability, not cost to net zero. They are very different things. It also ignores the cost of scale, go all in on say solar today and that doesn't make more panels available, the increased demand would raise prices and suddenly its not so profitable.

Nothing is as simple and easy as people want it to be.

[-] TWeaK@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

However, the researchers show that in terms of cost and speed, renewable energy sources have already beaten nuclear and that each investment in new nuclear plants delays decarbonization compared to investments in renewable energies. “In a decarbonizing world, delays increase CO2 emissions,” the researchers pointed out.

They talk about profit to get the attention of money people, but the ultimate goal is decarbonization. Hell, the title of the source article is "Why investing in new nuclear plants is bad for the climate".

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[-] SpaceCadet@feddit.nl 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Any money that goes to nuclear could be going to renewables, which would get us there more quickly.

That's a false dilemma. Nuclear and renewables provide different things, so they shouldn't be compared directly in an "either or" comparison, and certainly not on cost. Nuclear power provides a stable baseline, so you don't have to rely on coal/gas/diesel powered generators. Renewables cheaply but opportunistically provide power from natural sources that may not always be available but that can augment the baseline. The share of renewable energy in the mix is something engineers should figure out, not "the market".

Also, monetary cost shouldn't be the only concern. Some renewables have a societal cost too, for example in the amount of land that they occupy per kWh generated, or visual polution. I wouldn't want to live within the shadow flicker of a windmill for example.

[-] IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago
[-] Zink@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago

There’s an interesting point buried at the end of that article: electricity quality. With batteries in the loop, supply can scale with demand almost instantly, versus the time it takes for various types of power plant to adjust output.

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[-] kemsat@lemmy.world 53 points 1 year ago

Yeah no shit. We already knew nuclear was not profitable, but it’s clean & makes tons of power, so it’s a good deal for everyone that isn’t a business & wants cheap & clean energy.

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[-] BombOmOm@lemmy.world 47 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The question has always been what does one do when the renewables aren't providing enough power (ex: nights, etc). The current solution is natural gas. It would be a big improvement if we would use a carbon-free source like nuclear instead.

[-] 0xD21F@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago

Pumped-storage hydroelectricity is an old and proven method for load balancing intermittent power sources. Would like to see more of that as geography permits.

[-] complacent_jerboa@lemmy.world 37 points 1 year ago

The "as geography permits" part is a big obstacle, unfortunately.

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago

Actually it isn't if you stop only looking at places that are also suitable as power plant, that is, have a big river flowing through them.

You can do pumped hydro in an old mineshaft.

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[-] complacent_jerboa@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

According to the article, the researchers concluded that nuclear reactors are not a good fit for that role.

[-] schroedingershat@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Here's an example of what can be done with 5 hours of storage. 5 hours is a 25% participation rate of V2G where the participants offer a third of their battery capacity.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/a-near-100pct-renewable-grid-for-australia-is-feasible-and-affordable-with-just-a-few-hours-of-storage/

If going with the (false) assumption that nuclear can hit 100% grid penetration, it would take decades to offset the carbon released by causing a single year of delay.

The lowest carbon "let's pretend storage is impossible and go with 100% nuclear" would still start with exclusively funding VRE.

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[-] TWeaK@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

The growing idea is to just have a shit load of renewables, everywhere. The wind is always blowing somewhere, and the sun shines through the clouds. If you have a ridiculous excess total capacity then even when you're running at limited capacity you could still cover the demand. Basically, most of our renewable infrastructure would actually be curtailed or offline a lot of the time.

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consumers may also help reduce system costs by adapting their electricity consumption to the availability of renewable energy

From the linked paper. They mention some other options for storage like batteries (plenty of environmental issues there though) but based on the quoted text I have a hard time taking this seriously if they actually expect people to change their behavior.

[-] schroedingershat@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Plug in car. Press the "I would like to only pay $100/yr to fuel this please" button.

Later when you leave for work press the "I would like the house to be cool when I get home and also want to pay half as much for AC" button.

Buy the 1.5m wide water heater that stores 10kWh of hot water and lasts a week between heatings rather than the 70cm one that lasts a day.

Such an unconscionable burden.

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[-] Silverseren@kbin.social 35 points 1 year ago

Profitability is so much not the point here and also, there's no reason for different energy production sources (especially ones that are base power vs incidental power) to be in conflict. Do both of them.

[-] theragu40@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

We don't have to like it but unfortunately profitability is by far the number one driver for...well everything. So little is accomplished by way of altruism. People are greedy. The best way to successfully incentivize climate action is for environmentally friendly actions to become the most profitable and be advertised as such.

So I agree with you that both options should be used. But I disagree that profitability is not the point. Money is always the point and always has been.

[-] steelrat@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Price of energy is key to the success of every economy.

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[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 22 points 1 year ago

That's not difficult. Nuclear is extremely expensive.

With renewables you just sell it to the grid for whatever gas generated electricity is going for. Which is currently still a fucking lot. Thanks Russia.

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[-] grue@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nah, the power company likes the profits from nuclear way better.

The secret is that they can bill the ratepayers for all the cost overruns, while keeping the extra profits on the cost-plus construction contract for the shareholders.

(Source: I'm a Georgia Power ratepayer being absolutely reamed for Plant Vogtle 3 and 4, and the Georgia Public Service Commission isn't doing a single goddamned thing to hold Georgia Power to account or to help people like me.)

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[-] ZIRO@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

Stop all the hate for nuclear. It's just a way for the fossil fuel industry to cause infighting among those of us who care about the climate. If we can make energy free or close to it, we should. The closer everything comes to being free the better.

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[-] NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

K, but this isn't about profits. This is about not destroying the environment, which nuclear can help with (you know if nobody bombs the plant)

[-] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

But it's also about cost. Nuclear is far more expensive upfront, more expensive to maintain, and more expensive to decommission. Cheap, agile renewables will be an easier option for the vast majority of the planet

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[-] DarkThoughts@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

Everything is about profits. Otherwise we wouldn't even be in this mess.

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[-] artisanrox@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago

More profitable AND safer. Humans are too stupid, lazy and bureaucratic to use nuclear.

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[-] BeautifulMind@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Until we are able to sort out the cost/tech to make a green-sourced grid (such that the role of utilities is to capture surpluses from when the sun shines and the wind blows and sell it back when transient sources aren't producing) nuclear is going to be an important part of a non-carbon-producing energy portfolio.

Already it's cheaper to bring new solar and wind online than any other sort of electrical production; the fact that those are transient supply sources is the last major obstacle to phasing carbon fuels entirely out of the grid. If nuclear can be brought safely online it could mean pushing the use of fossil energy entirely into use cases where energy density is critical (like military aviation)

[-] prole@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago

Who fucking cares about profit, our planet is dying.

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[-] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago

What about when the grid is almost entirely renewables? Is nuclear cheaper than just storage? What about storage one it's already been implemented to the point of resource scarcity?

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[-] pizzazz@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Gotta love anti nuclear activists getting more and more desperate. You're being decarbonised. Please do not resist.

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[-] Neato@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

If we measured the amount of destruction to our environment that fossil fuels cost long-term I bet they'd stop being profitable really quick.

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[-] aesthelete@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

This is such a weird thing to research because a government (or governments) can directly or almost directly control what is profitable in a society based upon what is needed.

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[-] Femcowboy@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago

If we had an energy system owned by the people and not ran for profits, nuclear would be a viable, and probably even the preferred, option. We do not. We're probably going to have to fix that to get a practical and reliable clean energy grid.

[-] wewbull@feddit.uk 6 points 1 year ago

No, it would just bankrupt the state. Just because something is state owned, doesn't mean the cost vanishes.

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[-] agitatedpotato@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 1 year ago

Profit doesn't equal good. Renewables take a lot of materials and fabrication to upkeep. Im sure theres more money to be made in renewable than there is in nuclear, that doesn't imply one is better than the other.

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this post was submitted on 30 Aug 2023
557 points (91.1% liked)

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