Idk, most navigation would be along or close to the ecliptic plane of the system, wouldn't it
If you are going to and from points within a solar system, probably but not necessarily. Every transfer made between gravitational influences increases the chance that you will enter at an angle to the equatorial plane, especially if the two influences are not coplanar traveling between solar systems would likely have you entering at a significant angle. Furthermore, approaching a ship at a low velocity means slowing down as you approach them, so even if you do approach coplanar, it would be engines first and not nose first (unless star trek vessels have an ability to reverse their propulsors? I don't know if that's ever been shown aside from by approaching things nose first). The expanse showed this aspect of space interaction well with the flip and burn maneuvers
Starfleet ships basically maneuver like they're weightless ~~massless?~~, which, mathematically, they probably are. Inertial Dampeners are mostly mentioned in reference to stopping Worf from smashing into all the science stations every time the ship accelerates, but if inertia isn't affecting the ship, they can basically do whatever they want. Even a tiny amount of thrust would be enough to put them in reverse from Full Impulse. Add to this that the ships aren't held together by their superstructures, but by their Structural Integrity Fields, and really, a Starfleet vessel could be constructed in basically any shape. They just look like they have a front and an up because humans like it that way
Id also propose that the ships are built with up and down with the additional factor of navigation. Humans typically spend their entire lives in gravity so it's probably easier for humans to navigate a massive ship when it is built like it's in gravity so the crew onboard can focus on their jobs instead of figuring out what direction is the engine room. Additionally we always see that every ship in the show also has artificial gravity onboard. Making a amorphously designed ship even more confusing to navigate/traverse.
between solar systems
FYI, there is only one solar system in the universe.
Source:
There are many planetary systems like ours in the universe, with planets orbiting a host star. Our planetary system is called “the solar system” because we use the word “solar” to describe things related to our star, after the Latin word for Sun, "solis." — NASA
But that still means they shouldn't always meet with both having the same side 'up.' Sometimes one should be 180 degrees from the other.
How do we know that all the alien ships we're seeing for the first time aren't actually upsidedown?
Another question for you- Would it be close to the system's ecliptic plane so that you have a per-system standard or would it be close to the galactic plane for an intergalactic standard? Maybe some civilizations would choose one and some the other.
Any ship traveling towards another ship would have its nose pointed towards it.
If both ships travel towards each other, their noses would be aligned, but their roll would likely be different.
That's a bit different from what's being shown in the comic where ships seem to have any orientation, no matter the context.
As for a galactic up/down, the galactic disc would be the obvious reference. That still leaves a 50/50 chance that two civilizations would choose the same direction as up.
Realistically (i.e., not in Star Trek), a ship traveling toward something will have its engine cone pointed towards it as it decelerates for rendezvous.
I disagree. You can have low angle intercepts where the nose can be pointed well less than nose-on or almost the same direction even. Inertia in space would have the nose pointed away from the other ship in some direction to decelerate. I think your comment completely disregards vectors of thrust and velocity along with the relative motion of the target. Nose-to-nose would be an incredibly unlikely arrangement to intercept or rendezvous. Maybe you're thinking more orbital mechanics where nose/nose would be right for say docking, but even then it disregards the maneuvering to catch up/decelerate/orbital altitude maneuvering needed prior to that meetup.
There is direction in space. Space is not a formless void there is order and structure to the universe.
The solar system is shaped like a disk. Most planets orbit and revolve to the same axis as the solar system.
When a star trek ship is seen in orbit, like the opening to TOS it is usually shown orbiting with the up of the ship facing the north of the planet, making a left turn with the planet off the port side.
Having a consistent orientation, like up=north would make sense for navigating a solar system. Federation ships in orbit are always shown rotating to face the direction of travel while in orbit. That's not at all needed to remain in orbit, but having consistent orientation seems important to the federation.
tldr: The enemy gate is down. Orientation helps because we're just built that way, and so is most everything else.
I'd like to think that it is an unspoken rule among all spacefaring people, regardless of their planetary origin or biological design, to automatically reorient their ships to match the "up" direction of any other ship they are approaching.
It makes sense since (effectively) all spacefaring peoples started on a planet with gravity and well defined "up" directions. You wouldn't interact with anyone in gravity while upside down, so as a courtesy you'd always want to be facing "up" for both your sake's.
Technically, this only needs to be the practice of Starfleet (or even just human) navigators in order to account for 99% of what we see in Star Trek. Maybe it's our guys who are doing all the careful orienting, and the alien of the week just comes in from whatever angle they want.
And there are LOTS of examples of other ships uncloaking in non aligned positions.
I like this "starfleet policy is to make a best guess and align up when approaching" - borg cube presents particular problems.
Or maybe, since Starfleet is seeing it all through the view screen rather than directly, it’s just a little image manipulation for the comfort of the viewer
Can't tell if this comic just doesn't get it or put zero thought into it. And there is several examples throughout the various series where two ships don't align to each other.
There are several reasons why the ships would always face each other, from common courtesy to defensive posturing.
When two ships face each other its like an nonverbal way of saying "we see you" or "you have our attention". Orientation also plays apart in this. Of course there is no real reason to orient so both ships face "up" thanks to artificial gravity, but it's also something that could be seen as polite and etiquette as getting on the same level as the other meeting them half way.
For defensive purposes, it also makes sense to nose towards a potential threat or adversary as within star trek the shields are strongest at the front (thanks to deflectors and navigational shielding) as well as the best/most accurate sensors to get a good reading. Additionally the forward arc of the ship will likely have the most overlapping weapon arcs, especially for ships like klingon bird of preys with fixed disruptor cannons facing forwards. This posture also tends to keep primary engineering, where the reactor/warp core is situated, obscured and defended, so if the ship wants to make a swift retreat their primary means of doing so is less likely to be damaged or disabled, and if you engage an FTL retreat towards a foes rear that foe needs to turn about and reorient themsevles to give chase, giving more time for the retreating party to take evasive action and avoid further intercepts.
Also, when playing space games, I automatically roll to align my ship's up vector with the ships I encounter, without thinking about it. So I guess human nature plays a role too.
Hilariously, they address this in the first season of Discovery.
When Starfleet ships meet with Klingon ships you see them out the windows hanging at odd angles. When two Starfleet ships meet, they warp in at an odd angle then bank and roll to align the ships to each other.
There is a federation standard for which way is "up" based on the plane of the galaxy.
So at least that explains why Federation ships always meet on "level ground"
as for why the romulans, klingon, and various other non federation, especially non friendly species from the other quadrants, would be oriented the same way?
Idk, maybe the progenitor race from that one single episode of tng that never showed up or was spoken of again made some kind of subliminal or genetic memories of which way up should be.
Somewhere, in Alpha Centauri, in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of Leopard, there is a very important looking document titled "This Side Up".
the progenitor race from that one single episode of tng that never showed up or was spoken of again
The entire final season of Discovery was about the Progenitors.
This is why the Borg are true geniuses. Spheroid ships are good from any perspective.
I wonder how ship design would change if odd orientation were normalized
That's how Kirk defeated Kahn. He understood that space isn't limited to just 2 dimensions
I'm actually surprised you were the first person to bring that up. I was going to, but then I got into a conversation with someone in the thread and forgot. It's the only time I can remember where they really used the idea that space is three dimensional.
They even make a note of it that Khan is possible to defeat because of it. Spock says, "he is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking."
And then virtually all other Star Trek space battles are based on two dimensional thinking. Oh well.
There is no other battle shown in Star Trek to rival the time given to the one in Khan.
Off the top of my head there are incidences of ships being behind moons, in weird places they wouldn't expect, etc. It's just not a) discussed nearly as much on screen or b} shown on screen.
When we do see big battles, they are in 3d - Wolf 359 comes to mind.
I think you are correct that Khan is explicit and gives it a lot of punch, but I would argue we shouldn't be too quick to say they almost never deal with 3d/zero g.
(who remembers Klingon's blood is pink?)
This reminds me of how in a lot of sci-fi universes, every planet the characters go down to has earth standard gravity. When in reality there would be a ton of variance, some planets would have 20% stronger, or weaker, or crushing.
Expeditionary Force book series was a breath of fresh air, portray space battles how they probably would play out, at such long ranges you could move your ship and avoid a directed energy weapon. The books also do a great job with there being more variety in planetary conditions too. I loved that series. The audio books are fantastic, R.C. Bray does a wonderful job!
I think many stories hand-wave this by only interacting with "M" class planets unless the story is helped by adding the additional complexity.
The Orville has that with Xelayans coming from a planet with higher gravity so they're super strong under human conditions.
That's last pane is essentially an eve online screenshot
Clearly transporters can't compensate for relative orientation so its universal courtesy to align your ships so guests don't transport in upside down.
Every time a person transports the transporter annihilates the universe and rebuilds it around the transportee but just a little to the left or right depending where they want to go
Here's my retcon. The science of inertial dampeners are such that you have to be precisely aligned perpendicular to galactic north for maximum effectiveness.
galactic north
This isn't entirely unreasonable to determine, since the galaxy is a big disk and you could map that as a 2D plane. For the most part, ships are traveling across the plane between planets, in the same way that a ship flying from Earth to the Moon or Earth to Mars would be flying through a plane perpendicular to the two bodies. Not a lot to visit above or below the plane, and the shortest distance would be between two points, so...
Down is towards the target.
The Enemy Gate is down!
This is why I appreciate the scene in Undiscovered Country where Kronos One glides into view, seeming to align itself to the Enterprise's orientation.
They probably align to the orientation of the galaxy they are in. Or even the solar system.
You only have 2 orientations like that.
3, you can also treat the center as down.
Something something traditional practice based on nautical custom, therefore something alignment for better something something.
seems like it would be common protocol to achieve the same plane. like, the ships are designed to slowly modify their stature as they meet.
I always thought that it was the computer adjusting the view for the crew. I mean its not a window its a screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCARADb9asE
Boldly going forward cause we can't find reverse
I hate this take. It doesn't look stupid at all, it looks cool.
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