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Disclaimer: I am not trolling, I am an autistic person who doesn’t understand so many social nuances. Also I am from New Hampshire (97% white), so I just don’t have any close African-American friends that I am willing to risk asking such a loaded question.

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[-] xantoxis@lemmy.world 249 points 5 months ago

Watermelon and chicken were two of the ways that black people started supporting themselves after being freed from slavery. They were agricultural products they could raise with very little investment and start building wealth from essentially nothing. Racists, not wanting them to prosper, mocked them for their preference for these things, but it's important to note that the mockery didn't stop them from supporting themselves with the foods they were able to produce. To this day black people enjoy these foods, and there's nothing wrong with them enjoying the foods. If you're with your black family, and you want to celebrate your own heritage, this isn't actually a bad way to do it.

However.

When a corporation, particularly a corporation run and staffed by white people, makes a choice to celebrate a significant black cultural date by presenting people with foods that white people used to mock black people, it reads as mockery. (This is especially true in North Carolina, a place where racism is rampant and open.) At best, this is tone deaf; someone along the way should have said "hey, do you think any black people will feel like you're doing this as a racist attack?" And if any one of them had answered "yes" to that question, they wouldn't have done it. It made it through the pipeline to being something they actually did because nobody in the decision chain cares about the racist overtones of what they were doing.

If you're going to do anything to celebrate black history or black culture, failing to ask any black people what they think about it is racism. Cultural sensitivity would have meant getting some input from a few black folks about how they think it should be celebrated--and, had they done that, they would have avoided this mess.

And, just in case anyone was wondering, the VP in charge of this situation is white.

[-] just_ducky_in_NH@lemmy.world 65 points 5 months ago

Thank you! TIL Black people were mocked for liking those foods. They are the best, racists are only hurting themselves if they don’t eat it!

[-] xantoxis@lemmy.world 109 points 5 months ago

Ah, but here's the real hypocrisy: they absolutely do eat those foods. Southerners of any color love fried chicken and watermelon. That doesn't stop them from being racist about it. Racism doesn't have to make sense.

[-] Broken_Monitor@lemmy.world 53 points 5 months ago

Every time this comes up I gotta say, who the fuck doesn’t like fried chicken and watermelon?! It’s like making fun of someone for liking sunshine and the ability to breathe. Not that I needed another reason to point at racists and call them a bunch of fucked up morons, but goddamn they are bunch of fucked up morons.

[-] memfree@lemmy.ml 17 points 5 months ago

Came here to say that. Barring a few contrarians, EVERYONE likes both watermelon and fried chicken. I know vegetarians who will admit that fried chicken tastes fantastic, even if they no longer eat it.

I also wanted to link to some info about the "Coon Chicken Inn" chain -- founded by a white guy, of course.

pic

off topic piece on collectors' racist items

[-] Broken_Monitor@lemmy.world 23 points 5 months ago

Holy fuckin shit

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[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 12 points 5 months ago

Not that I needed another reason to point at racists and call them a bunch of fucked up morons, but goddamn they are bunch of fucked up morons.

People are literally killing people who's ancestors adapted to more exposure to direct sunlight than theirs did. I can't not see it in just that simple way and think "what the actual fuck is wrong with people?" You can't even say it's a culture thing they don't like, because they don't actually know the people they cast hate at other than the color of their skin. It's absolute insanity.

[-] Anticorp@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It’s like making fun of someone for liking sunshine

At the risk of completely derailing the conversation, I've met a lot of people in the PNW who don't like warm weather or sunshine. When summer rolls around they start complaining about it being too sunny and want the grey skies back. Frickin weirdos!

[-] Montagge@lemmy.zip 11 points 5 months ago

That's me! The life giving sun can fuck off behind the clouds!

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[-] dylanmorgan@slrpnk.net 8 points 5 months ago

Dave Chapelle had a whole bit about this before he decided to double (and triple, and quadruple) down on transphobia. He makes the very salient point that these things are delicious.

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[-] magnetosphere@fedia.io 32 points 5 months ago

If I recall correctly, some states even had laws against black people raising animals like cows (and maybe pigs too?), so chickens were their only option.

[-] Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world 19 points 5 months ago

Ok, everything you just said is true, and a great answer if the question is "Why is chicken and watermellon a bad food to be assosiated with February/Juneteenth?".

However, the question is "Why is it different from corned beef on St. Patricks day?" And everything you just said is ALSO true about how Americans treated the Irish upon their mass immigration to America during the 1800s. They were mocked for corned beef, potatoes, and alcohol. The Irish were assosiated with those items in Ireland for the same reasons black people were assosiated with chicken, and watermellons. It was cheap, and it fed a poor mans family. The non-poor (whites) mocked them for being poor.

So......you gave a great answer, but not for this exact question. And yes, I know the original question didn't mention potatoes or alcohol, but it also applies for the same reasons.

I'm not saying what the company did was right, I'm saying those same racist stigmas for the holiday it was compared to is equally wrong.

I think a better answer is "It's not so different. Both are wrong."

[-] xantoxis@lemmy.world 41 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I mean, OP replied to my answer and apparently liked it, so I think I got him squared. But here's a real response:

When the concept of whiteness was invented (yes, invented) it didn't originally include Irish people, and they did endure abuse and marginalization comparable to what black people have endured and continued to endure. Irish people were worked as near slaves, so they even have a lot of that in common. As you say, I think that if you were Irish in America in the early 19th century, people who already belonged to the White club would have mocked you for your corned beef. We still make fun of Irish people for these things.

But there is a difference. Irish people in modern times got access to whiteness. They were accepted as part of the in-group and no longer marginalized. When this happened, and it took decades to gradually go this direction, the mockery didn't disappear but, if you were Irish (and, in fact, I am) it would have started to feel less like someone who means you harm, and more as friendly teasing, precisely because you have access to the same power as the Germans and the British and so on who already belonged to the club.

Black people don't have that. Black people are still very much marginalized, still the victims of racism and violence and institutional exclusion. So piling the food-based racism on top of that, is going to feel a lot more painful.

It's one thing to be mocked; but to be mocked by someone else who is punching down is much worse.

[-] apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

An interesting aside that you probably know: corned beef and cabbage is a distinctly Irish-American tradition. The Irish were economically forced to raise cattle for corned beef for British folks. Despite raising and curing the beef, they could not afford it and subsisted on potatoes. Britain's wealth and insatiable appetite for corned beef was so immense that those who made it could not afford the price. On the other hand, the reliance on potatoes for subsistence during this period as well as its outcome is well known.

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[-] Grimy@lemmy.world 54 points 5 months ago

Fried chicken has historically been used to mock black culture, not celebrate it

[-] jws_shadotak@sh.itjust.works 32 points 5 months ago

I don't understand that, though...

Fried chicken is fuckin delicious.

[-] Boozilla@lemmy.world 37 points 5 months ago

That's part of the cruelty. Almost everybody loves fried chicken. But growing up in the deep south, they were mocked for it in nasty ways I witnessed (but don't feel comfortable describing).

[-] Drusas@kbin.run 10 points 5 months ago

I think part of the disconnect is that you don't see that same mockery in the north.

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[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 16 points 5 months ago

Everyone ate it too. The mockery was because

  • they were messy to eat
  • they were staples commonly eaten
  • they were made and sold by black people early in their steps of economic independence following slavery.
  • racism doesn't have to make sense.

If you hate someone, anything they do can be something you use to express your hate, even if you do it to.

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[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 38 points 5 months ago

Probably a lot of black families actually do have fried chicken, barbeque and cookouts are apparently a big part of the festivities traditionally.

If you find yourself becoming such good friends with a black person that they actually invite you to one of these cookouts, don't bring fried chicken, or watermelons, or most of the stereotypical "black" foods, they're considered black people food because the post civil war south fostered an environment of chronic black poverty on purpose that led to black families tending towards raising cheaper animals and growing cheaper crops for their own consumption.

So a white guy cracking watermelon or fried chicken jokes or bringing that kind of stuff to a black celebration comes across less as trying to share in the culture and more as rubbing salt in a, in many ways still open, wound.

As for what you should bring, bro just ask. Just making it known ya want to bring something for folks to enjoy will be good and appreciated, and if they decide they'd like to take you up on that, they'll either give you a recipe off their list of stuff they've decided they want or ask what you think you can handle making and take your word on that if anything you feel confident making sounds good. Who knows, maybe that year will go down as the year that corned beef ya mentioned becomes a staple of the annual cookout!

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[-] poopsmith@lemmy.world 36 points 5 months ago

I'd argue it depends on who is serving it and what their intentions are. I don't think it's necessarily bad. I went to a local Juneteenth celebration and the food stands were serving some fried chicken, collard greens, jollof rice, etc.

[-] TwoBeeSan@lemmy.world 30 points 5 months ago

Totally agree about intention. Food is not inherently racist it's all about intent.

[-] memfree@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Both tburkhol and I posted about Coon Chicken Inn -- a place for white people BY white people with a denigrating caricature of a black man as their logo (on their delivery vehicles, menu, and even entrances).

spujb links to the chicken stereotype.

It is one thing for a group of people to choose what food to serve themselves, and something else when an oppressed group is mocked, denied rights, and then illustrated as liking foods that EVERYONE likes as if those foods are somehow a hilarious thing for them to eat. Side note: Sooo many places serve fried chicken that the only reason it is racist is associations like Coon Chicken Inn (and the racism leading to its creation). Lots of BBQ places in particular serve collards as well as Caribbean spots. Jollof is specifically African (not American). If I see Jollof or Fufu on the menu, I'm hoping for cassava leaves instead of collards, but I understand it isn't as available in the U.S.

[-] Notyou@sopuli.xyz 31 points 5 months ago

This question reminds me of when that school in NY got in trouble for serving "stereotype food" for black history month.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/06/us/aramark-black-history-month-menu-school-reaj/index.html

I have the same confusion as you do, OP. It appears to be a liked dish by all accounts across many races, upbringings, or religions. Unless you have dietary restrictions like Vegan or something.

I'm assuming this is one of the things that racists ruined. Like yeah people like fried chicken, but racist made it a "bad thing." It's kind of like now, you got to look out for the number 88, vikings, the okay sign, the gadsden flag, or punisher flag. It's not that mentioning fried chicken is necessary bad, but people are on edge because Nazi's are back. 1 of the dog whistles might be a coincidence, but you start collecting them and I start side eyeing my co-workers more.

Those damn dog whistles need to end, so we can all enjoy fried chicken and watermelon on Juneteenth.

[-] qarbone@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago

This is not targeted at you nor OP.

The answer for both you and OP is tied to your last sentence

so we can all enjoy fried chicken and watermelon on Juneteenth.

Why fried chicken and watermelon and why on Juneteenth? Do you eat fried chicken and watermelon as part of your normal rotation? (Hopefully, 'yes' because both are delicious and everyone should be afforded the opportunity to indulge)

The issue is that very evidently in both OP's case and the one you linked that someone was given the prompts "food for celebration" and "celebration of African Americans", generated "African American party foods", and churned out a menu reinforcing racist stereotypes. The inquiry is "hey, where is your head at?"

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[-] Snapz@lemmy.world 12 points 5 months ago

Don't forget red hats, no more red hats without automatic suspicion... If they have white block text, amplify suspicion by 10,000

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[-] Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone 24 points 5 months ago

Historically fried chicken and watermelon are stereotypical foods associated with black Americans as part of minstrel shows, which were usually performed in blackface, and other racist portrayals of black people. Watermelon in particular was turned into a negative racial stereotype because growing watermelon was one way that emancipated slaves could be financially independent.

Fried chicken has been associated with enslaved black people since before the Civil War, because chickens were the only livestock they were allowed to keep. Well into the 20th century there were also white-owned restaurants and brands that drew on these stereotypical images over the protests of black people.

At best it is very ignorant of the history of racism in the US to have a fried chicken and watermelon special on Juneteenth, because the thought process is just black people holiday = fried chicken and watermelon. At worst it’s just signaling to other racists, which is definitely not an unviable business strategy in some parts of the US.

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

stereotypical foods associated with black Americans

It was a money thing. Poor people ate chicken, rich people ate beef or pork. It didn't just start with slaves, the frying method is literally Scottish in origin, which is why hillbillies were doing it too.

The insulting part was in ministrel shows, it was portrayed as "a taste of the highlife".

That they were excited for something hillbillies considered normal food. And most people looked down on hillbillies.

There's nothing wrong with fried chicken and watermelon. It's that for a serious event, they're having fried chicken and watermelon.

Like, imagine you have a big event, and that's what there is. Regardless of how much you like it, there's gonna be a pause.

That being said, I'm white, and fried chicken was literally the main course at every family event including weddings growing up. But that's because my family is all hillbillies. That's just what we do. We sure as shit didn't have someone cook it for us that didn't know how, it's one thing when the recipe is 200 years old and the same that your family has always been eating.

Not to mention the most important part of a chicken fry is everyone getting together. My family bitched and fought all the time. But if chicken was being fried it was like an elite military operation.

So getting a plate of bland fried chicken and unsalted watermelon just strips every good part of the tradition away, while reminding you that you could be celebrating.

And leaves the racist connotation.

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[-] khannie@lemmy.world 24 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Others have given you solid answers on why the chicken and watermelon thing was really stupid so I'll try to answer from the Irish perspective on the second part of your question:

You can serve me corned beef and cabbage on St. Patrick's day as long as you're not being a dick about it. I'd probably consider it a nice effort actually if I happened to be abroad on the day.

My dad used to love corned beef, cabbage and potatoes with parsley sauce. It's a grand meal but not my thing.

If you were a unionist who served it to me in a leprechaun outfit I'd be inclined to tell you where to go though.

Edit: I hope this answers your question. It's a good question and the answer is nuanced so if I can offer you more perspective let me know, I'd be happy to help.

[-] postmateDumbass@lemmy.world 11 points 5 months ago

Note: Unionist is not refering to labor unions.

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[-] OkGo@lemm.ee 22 points 5 months ago

Fried chicken should be served EVERY day.

[-] bloodfart@lemmy.ml 22 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Irish people are white.

They didn’t start out that way in America, because race is a social construct used by the state to achieve its ends and when a shit ton of Irish people were coming over to the United States to escape the manmade potato famine the terms of their acceptance into American society was that they’d be doing the shittiest work.

American society dealt with this contradiction by adopting the racial pseudoscience that put Irish people below “real whites”.

Whiteness isn’t something innate that can be measured objectively (although pseudoscientific methods claim to be able to do so!), it’s a basic subjective measure of where one stands in the white supremacist power structure.

The white supremacist power structure informs all sorts of stuff like can you get a loan, can you get insurance, do you need to be more afraid of dying to the cops than usual, how loud can you play your music, pretty much every aspect of life in America.

After Catholicism became more widely accepted in the us, and a shit ton of Irish people became cops (so that the white supremacist state could surveil their communities) Irish people were eventually considered white.

Black people in America aren’t white. That might seem like an obvious thing to say, but it’s important to be clear that the process of integration that the Irish immigrant wave went through was never really offered to black Americans.

A person could argue that we are living through that process right now and I think there is a process of integration going on but it’s not making black Americans part of the broader white American group but instead giving black Americans a seat at the table of capital. That’s a significantly different deal.

Anyway, there’s this thing called racism, which is where a society uses the completely made up category of race to discriminate against groups of people to achieve its ends.

Some examples of American racism are slavery, segregation, redlining, the treatment of agricultural workers, the treatment of rail workers, etc.

What’s important is that racism is when a society (or its members) discriminate against some group. There is power in the discrimination and it’s being used against a group.

If a bank decides not to lend to white people it doesn’t hurt white people because there’s literally all the other banks that they can go to and get loans. There is discrimination being used against a group in that example, but it has no power over them because they’ll just go to all the banks that (and I’m quoting directly from a Bank of America sign here) don’t “serve coloreds”.

Okay, so why am I saying this? We’re talking about food!

There’s an old stereotype that black people eat watermelon and fried chicken. There’s a long and storied history to the food stereotypes of black Americans but I’ll spare you the tangent and just say it’s visible in all sorts of Jim crow and segregation era media and arts and crafts stuff.

If you got one of those “antique mall” type places you can probably see some of it there.

During and before Jim Crow and segregation, those stereotypes were deployed to depict black Americans as at best ignorant country bumpkins and at worst subhuman apes.

So to serve the stereotypical food of a racist caricature on a day that is intended to remember the freeing of the last slaves is at best thoughtless reproduction of a racist stereotype and at worst malicious intentional reification of a racist stereotype!

But why isn’t it racist to serve corned beef on saint patricks day? Well for one thing, saint Patrick’s day isn’t seriously celebrated as a remembrance of Irish American culture or the experience of immigrants almost anywhere in the us. It’s one of the big four, a drinking holiday with a dress code.

It’s also not perpetuating harmful stereotype to run a homemade Reuben special on saint Patrick’s day. No one bites into a Rachel and thinks “lol, those dumb micks are only good for driving spikes, drinking and swearing allegiance to Rome” or “if only they could multiply the way they multiply, maybe they wouldn’t be so poor, sad!”

Now that’s not to say it’s racist to prepare or eat fried chicken or watermelon. As a southerner I got strong feelings about both.

But pretty much it boils down to Irish people are white.

E: I fucking made a stupid ass mistake and substituted greenwood for the freeing of the last slaves when describing the context of Juneteenth. My dumbass brain was going “tell em about how greenwood and Parrish street were about giving black Americans a seat at the table of capital, instead of equality under white supremacy” over and over again the whole time I was writing this stream of consciousness ass post and when I couldn’t find a place to shoehorn it in the ol’ brain took over and did it anyway. Thanks to fryhyde for pointing it out!

[-] FryHyde@lemmy.zip 12 points 5 months ago

So not to nitpick here, but Juneteenth isn't intended to remember the destruction of any neighborhood. Black Wall Steet, Central Park, etc. were all significant things that happened, but not related to Juneteenth. It's the day that the last slaves in Texas were actually declared free by the Union army on June 19th in Galveston.

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[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 21 points 5 months ago

About a century ago, blackface was a form of comedy where white people would make their faces black and put on comedic shows. They would take some elements of black culture, like mimicking accents or saying they love fried chicken and watermelon, and make fun of black people for being idiots.

Giving out fried chicken to an event like this feels like you don't really care about the event. Instead, it is a token gesture at best where the decision makers thought "well, black people like fried chicken, so give them that."

Watermelon and other red food is served on Juneteenth. But, if watermelon is the only red food there, they likely didn't pick it because of cultural sensitivity to the holiday.

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[-] Thcdenton@lemmy.world 19 points 5 months ago

I think it's not really a holiday for sharing culture. I don't know, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Adopting black traditions is a touchy topic in the US. Some encourage it, and others decry it as appropriation. Considering that its a holiday commemorating the end of owning black people, I can see how 'appropriating' a tradition on that day might be found distasteful.

That said I personally think the concept or cultural appropriation is nonsense. You do not own your culture. That is for everyone. What you own is your own experiences. Those are yours and no one else's.

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[-] mechoman444@lemmy.world 16 points 5 months ago

I'm a white man from Ukraine migrated to America in 1989.

I love fried chicken, I live in the south of America the deep South and man oh man do we have good fried chicken!

Fried chicken is a universally loved dish and is only stereotyped by the most ignorant of people!

Not only should fried chicken be served for Juneteenth it should be served on every holiday as well!

[-] foggy@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I gotta say, I genuinely love this issue.

Like I'm a left leaning generic progressive white guy with a degree that includes a Sociology minor. This shit is so fascinating to me.

I don't know many black people, personally. Maybe 10 humans I know (like... Might send a social media message to because we are casual acquaintances) are black. I live in a rural area. Two are vegan, but the rest do indeed love fried chicken. We joke, I'veasked. I mean fuck, So do I. What meat eater doesn't? It's such a bizarre stereotype from the start. I believe I've heard it has to do with slaves being given the wings and appendages of chicken? But I don't know the veracity of that. Seems plausible?

Anyways, this.

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[-] bear@lemmynsfw.com 11 points 5 months ago

Ignore what everyone on the internet says. They are wrong. Eat what you want. Just make sure everybody participating is comfortable. If you're not sure then ask them directly and listen to what they say.

[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 8 points 5 months ago

The issue isn't eating what you want.

The issue is that there is a cultural celebration involving food. Rather than try to serve food that fits within that cultural celebration, food was served based on a racial stereotype.

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[-] rez_doggie@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago

Tbh. I've been craving chicken and waffles for months. I was like hell yeah hopefully there's a event or some shit that might have some for sale...

Well no... only one place had it on the menu and it was a gentrified restraunt that was charging 25 bucks for chicken strips and a waffle for 28 bucks.

I was disappointed to say yhe least.

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[-] Kushan@lemmy.world 8 points 5 months ago

Wait, What's this about corned beef? I am Irish (as in actually from Ireland) and I have no idea what that has to do with St Patrick's day?

[-] raef@lemmy.world 14 points 5 months ago

Irish-Americans found an affinity for corned beef as they finally had access to meat and especially beef. They initially lived in and near Jewish neighborhoods, so, it became popular to boil up corned beef, cabbage, and root vegetables.

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this post was submitted on 20 Jun 2024
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