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Kebab war ignites as Germany fights Turkey over food protection (www.euronews.com)

submitted 5 months ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

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German producers have sparked a dispute by filing an opposition to a Turkish application to grant the döner kebab's special status at the EU level, initiating a six-month period to resolve disagreements.

A Turkish application to the European Commission for the döner kebab to be given similar EU recognition as the Neapolitan pizza and Spain's jamon serrano has been opposed by Germany, sources close to the issue have told Euronews.

As reported, in April Türkiye filed an application to register the name döner in Europe so that it can be used only by those producers conforming to the registered production method and product specifications.

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[-] bleistift2@sopuli.xyz 110 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Döner Kebab isn’t even a Turkish specialty. In Turkey, Döner (referring to the meat that turns) is served on a plate with salad and bread. It’s not fast food like the German Döner Kebab, and it’s not meant to be taken to go.

Döner Kebab was invented in Germany by a Turkish immigrant whose traditional Döner didn’t fare well, because Germans were always in a hurry.

Or so the story goes that I heard in a documentary on German TV about 15 years ago.

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 10 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Eh Australian style doner kebabs or just kebabs as we call them a fast food and not connected to Germany in any way.

I’d wager over 300 years the Turks figured out how to wrap meat in bread. We’re all just doing variations of that.

As for the word, it’s their word. They deserve the same ability to enforce a standard behind it as the EU does champagne and that shit.

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 5 points 5 months ago

Meat in bread indeed is not the German part, for a German Döner veggies and sauce aren't optional, even when served on a plate. Default is Tsatsiki -- not even Cacik, but the Greek stuff, without mint, dill, or extra water. Cucumber, tomato, onions, and some sort of cabbage as veggies, as well as the option of with Scharf, implemented via (usually pickled) Jalapenos and/or Sambal Oelek. There's various things to the whole thing you see in neither German or Turkish cuisine, it is true fusion food, wouldn't be possible without the different cuisines meeting.

As for the word, no, this is like the Italians trying to regulate what "Pizza" means instead of, rightly, regulating what "Pizza Neapolitana" means. If Swedes want to put pineapple in their Döner then Germans are going to join in with Turks calling it a crime against food but we're also not going to stop them.

I've heard all kinds of crazy stuff from outside Germany, like using ketchup or mayonnaise, can't even decide which is worse they're both atrocious choices. There's exactly one valid reason why you would use a sauce that's not yoghurt-based, and that's because you're making a vegan variant -- which would then imitate a yoghurt-based sauce (Vegan is not at all common but veggie options aren't rare, usually replacing meat with falafel otherwise the same concept).

[-] JayObey711@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

I've eaten a sloppy döner panini at a random train station somewhere once. They used mayonnaise to make it even more greasy. It went hard because I just came home from a ten hour shift. This experience tought me that no food is to sacred to me modified in seemingly disgusting ways. When it's fire it's fire.

[+] Fener15243@lemmy.ml 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

[deleted]

[-] bleistift2@sopuli.xyz 14 points 5 months ago

Indeed, I got the terminology wrong. „Kebap“ is the meat, „döner” means it turns.

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Besides, the majority of döner sold in Europe is just congealed meat.

Very much not the case in Germany. I'm not sure the German requirements are even that dissimilar to what Turkey came up with... which shouldn't be surprising, they're practically written by Turks in the sense that "this is what this thing means" in German food law is always based on "this is what good and proper cooks preparing it agree on", and when the guidelines were set those all happened to have been Turkish immigrants.

Not to mention that the industry association complaining are precisely those Turkish immigrants.

[-] raef@lemmy.world -3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I've seen the ingredients on commercial döner meat in a German Döner shop. It's mostly chicken skin

Edit: "meat", and downvote all you like, it doesn't make it untrue

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 5 months ago

Section 2.511.7, page 65 in the pdf. 18% skin max and no ground meat at all in the case of poultry Döner. If you saw more you either a) didn't see a Döner but a Drehspieß or b) should've contacted authorities.

Birds have skin what do you suppose we do with it, throw it away?

[-] raef@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It didn't have percentages, just a list of ingredients and, from what I know, they are listed in order of amount

I meant the info as support for the comment that it was just congealed meat. There were a lot of starches and binders as well

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 0 points 5 months ago

Then you saw something, but definitely not Döner.

I'll grant that it's easier to hide shoddy meat if use lots of spices and sell it mixed with veggies compared to serving it on a plate with rice but that doesn't mean that you can sell just anything as Döner in Germany. The same overall dish concept with stuff shaved from a ground meat skewer isn't nearly as nice, but it's still better than McDonalds so it has its place on the market... as "Ground meat skewer pocket Döner-style", not "Döner". And the Turkish initiative would change nothing about that.

Side note there's a lot of things to look out for when it comes to the quality of a German Döner, how the meat is cut from the skewer is not one of them. It literally makes no difference, yet the initiative wants to regulate the bloody length of the bloody blade. It's pointlessly over-restrictive. Pizza Neapolitana also regulates a lot of things but not the size of the pizza shovel -- as long as it fits into the oven and it's a comfortable size for the cook to handle, who cares? It also doesn't try to define "Pizza", only "Pizza Neapolitana", and if the initiative was restricting itself to the term "Bursa Döner" or something noone would mind.

[-] raef@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

It may have been some sort of "style" but it was what they were putting on the spit to cut from and being sold as "döner" on the menu.

Actually the pizza definitions do specify the thickness of the crust

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It may have been some sort of “style” but it was what they were putting on the spit to cut from and being sold as “döner” on the menu.

Then you should have contacted the authorities. Also shops using cheap meat don't do their own skewers they buy them frozen -- you can also get good meat in frozen form, but if a shop makes their own skewer they're not going to use shoddy ingredients that makes no economical sense at all.

Actually the pizza definitions do specify the thickness of the crust

Sensibly so, there's pizza styles with much thicker crusts than Neapolitana (also Italian ones). Not sure that's necessary for Döner simply because noone is cutting the meat off in slabs. 2mm minimum btw sounds rather thick. 5mm are definitely too thick. Heck that's an acceptable lower range for Wienerschnitzel. The maximum makes sense, a minimum not really.

And, as said: If they want to register Bursa Döner to be like that, a specific type of meat without spices and cut in rather thick slices, they're free to (though regulating the length of the blade is still BS). But why shouldn't there be other Döner beside that.

[-] raef@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

Then you should have contacted the authorities

I'll let someone with more skin in the game take care of it. If people notice, they'll go somewhere else, if they don't, then I guess that shop gets away with it.

I thought the sizes were pretty big. It'd end up looking like a steak burrito

[-] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 6 points 5 months ago

If it was invented in Germany then how do you explain Halifax Sauce? /s

checkmate bitches

[-] StaySquared@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Döner Kebab

This can be eaten in different ways... not just a salad. And in the U.S., in Dearborn (Muslim/Arab majority city), this is part of the fast food category, like when asking for a Doner Kabob (Turkish lamb) sandwich.

[-] mysticpickle@lemmy.ca 23 points 5 months ago

This is the equivalent of China asking for exclusive rights to General Tso's Chicken in the US. Shitty Chinese food is our exclusive domain you damn commies! 🦅

[-] JASN_DE@lemmy.world 15 points 5 months ago

Because it seems like most don't actually read the article:

The sources said that the German ministry made its case following feedback and positions submitted by several associations of German producers, adding that resistance to the Turkish application reflected the stance of German producers rather than the German government.

[-] Blizzard@lemmy.zip 9 points 5 months ago

Kebab Wars: Germany Strikes Back

[-] rooster_butt@lemm.ee 6 points 5 months ago

Begun the Kebab Wars have.

[-] bitwaba@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

This is going to be the tastiest war ever

[-] magikmw@lemm.ee 2 points 5 months ago

Polish kebab joints in shambles.

[-] CodexArcanum@lemmy.world -5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Being from Louisiana, it was interesting to spend some time in Berlin. Germans treat Turkish people a lot like we treat Black people: love their food and culture, but keep them in ghettos and don't let them have any real power!

I feel like this would be similar to America protecting the word "Cajun" in food, which shitty fastfood places love to slap on any food they've added a half-gram of cayenne powder to. Honestly, all in favor of restricting "cajun" or "döner" or any other food designation for which being regulated would enforce a higher quality standard and greater authenticity.

[-] tobogganablaze@lemmus.org 11 points 5 months ago

The opposition to the propsel is comming from the "Association of Turkish kebab makers in Europe" ...

[-] CodexArcanum@lemmy.world -4 points 5 months ago

So what? I can't find the slightest bit of info on who this organization is or who makes it up or who leads it.

[-] tobogganablaze@lemmus.org 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I translated the name, try searching for "Verein Türkischer Dönerhersteller in Europa".

But really the name is self explanatory.

The dish "Döner Kebab" was invented in Germany by Turkish migrants and became very popular. Now a group from Turkey is trying to enforce their definitions and regulations of what a Döner Kebab should be on our dish.

This has nothing to do with German people or government denying power to German-Turks. This is German Turks fighting back against Turkish-Turks trying to interfere with their buisnes.

Like image some activists in Italy would demand that the US government ban the word pizza unless it's refering to italian-style pizza.

[-] Akasazh@feddit.nl 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

~~Can you kindly point out these ghettos? As a neighbor of Germany I've never seen them.~~

[-] fussganger@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 5 months ago

He's right. One example is kottbusser tor in Berlin. Not much is done by the city of Berlin for this corner. Most German cities have such zones. İn Stuttgart the region around the Mauerstraße is even called Turkish ghetto.

[-] PeterLossGeorgeWall@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 5 months ago

What's meant by "not much is done by the city for this corner"? It's not a "corner". It's a big junction in a very large and populated neighborhood. I don't consider it a ghetto around there, actually it's expensive to live near there. The junction itself has been recently upgraded making it safer for pedestrians and cyclists. Further, most of the Turkish are German citizens. How are the German government forcing people into these neighborhoods?

[-] Akasazh@feddit.nl 1 points 5 months ago

I stand corrected.

this post was submitted on 25 Jul 2024

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