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West should set its own red lines, not just accept Putin’s, argues veteran diplomat (www.politico.eu)

submitted 2 weeks ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

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Former German diplomat Wolfgang Ischinger says Western leaders should be making more threats and be willing to follow them through.

The West should spend less time fretting about Russian President Vladimir Putin's red lines and set its own, says veteran German diplomat Wolfgang Ischinger.

“Russia keeps saying, if you do this, if you cross this or that red line, we might escalate,” said the 78-year-old onetime chairman of the Munich Security Conference. “Why don't we turn this thing around and say to them: ‘We have lines and if you bomb one more civilian building, then you shouldn't be surprised if, say, we deliver Taurus cruise missiles or America allows Ukraine to strike military targets inside Russia’?”

That way the onus will be on Moscow to decide whether to cross the red lines — or face the consequences.

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[-] drspod@lemmy.ml 53 points 2 weeks ago

I'm no "veteran diplomat" but in my experience it is only the people without real power who make threats. When you have power, you don't need to make threats. You just respond to events with whatever proportionate response is necessary and within your capability. You don't need to provide a preview of what those responses will be.

Setting "red lines" looks to me like weakness because it is essentially a plea to the other side not to do those things that you don't want them to do, and it invites them to push up to those red lines, do anything but, and test their boundaries to test your commitment to them.

[-] ms_lane@lemmy.world 15 points 2 weeks ago

Additionally, even if it didn't look weak, setting an established red line means Russia can snuggle right up to the line.

[-] FarceOfWill@infosec.pub 5 points 2 weeks ago

The us, and perhaps the west in general, hasn't really used red lines since Obama threatened Syria if they used chemical weapons and then didn't follow through.

[-] RecluseRamble@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

I disagree. Scaled down to small and harmless it's like handling kids. You explain what you don't want them to do and what happens/you're going to do if they continue. Now it's crucial you go through with what you threatened them with.

If you either don't deliver on the "threat" or don't act as you said you would, guess what happens? They just continue or it even gets worse.

Of course it's more delicate/difficult when handling with powerful and intelligent adults but it's at least similar. Not issuing threats is just not communicating. If you then just act (violently), things are more likely to escalate.

Edit: or back to the kids analogy: don't tell them anything but smack them once they went too far: may help in that instance but they'll just learn to better avoid you and do shit behind your back.

[-] drspod@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 weeks ago

If you think that international diplomacy between nation states is like handling kids then you're not a veteran diplomat either.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 51 points 2 weeks ago

Red line: invasion of Ukraine

Response: F-22s over Ukrainian skies

[-] lnxtx@feddit.nl 44 points 2 weeks ago

Meanwhile Israel

Red line: no red lines
Response: they have right to defend themself

[-] nogooduser@lemmy.world 28 points 2 weeks ago

There is a red line. The west keeps saying over and over again that they must defend themselves within international law.

The problem is that they either ignore the red line or deny that it was ever crossed.

[-] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world 4 points 2 weeks ago

They'll dead ass look you in the eye and tell you that the colour red doesn't exist, without a single fuck given.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 17 points 2 weeks ago

It's insane. Shows how much of international politics isn't "Which country benefits from what", but "What levers of decisionmaking are manipulated by whom". A little lobbying and foreign PR goes a long way.

[-] wildncrazyguy138@fedia.io 10 points 2 weeks ago

There have been some responses: https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/08/1153656 https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/experts-hail-icj-declaration-illegality-israels-presence-occupied

[-] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 9 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Laws are meaningless if criminals are not held accountable. It doesn't matter that anyone who supports Israel supports fascism — 30% of US voters support fascism. The fact is that as long as the US (and 5 eyes) supports and arms Netanyahu, the genocide will continue; everything they declare to the contrary is nothing more than a virtue signal.

The ICJ and all opposition is meaningless unless they are willing to take collective economic and military action again Israel and its supporters. They will not.

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[-] Badeendje@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

They have that right tough. It's just what we are all witnessing goes "a little" further than that.

[-] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 6 points 2 weeks ago

They have that right tough

hard disagree. Maybe if a foreign country wanted to create a Jewish ethnostate it should have set the borders inside its own sovereign lands instead of displacing 300k people it didn't give a shit about and causing an immediate regional war and decades of ongoing conflict?

Maybe then we could consider Israel a real country. Seeing how it didn't go that way? What israel deserves is to dissolve

[-] Badeendje@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago

And in your suggested dissolution of the state of Israel, what happens then? And what happens to the Jews that now live there?

[-] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 weeks ago

I think if we're following history and making a point we should put new israel on top of your home. No problem right?

[-] Badeendje@lemmy.world -1 points 2 weeks ago

That's not an answer to the question though, you are advocating for the dissolution, so let's put it on the table...

[-] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 weeks ago

If your question wasn't a flippant and dismissive response to my position, then neither was my answer.

[-] Badeendje@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

No, you made a statement that required a follow up question.. requiring you to elaborate. But I have the feeling that you are answering like this cause you simply refuse to say the quiet part out loud, or are to cowardly to come out and say it. But that's OK. I think most people reading your response get what you mean.

[-] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 weeks ago

But I have the feeling that you are answering like this cause you simply refuse to say the quiet part out loud, or are to cowardly to come out and say it

Every accusation is a confession

[-] Badeendje@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

Sure.. you still are dancing around specifying what your dissolution of the state of Israel would look like.

I'd personally like to see Netanyahu in a small concrete cell in Scheveningen.. just so we're clear.

[-] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works -1 points 2 weeks ago

Im dancing around what i hoped youd eventually figure out: to be clear, i really don't respect your ridiculous red herring)

Go look up red herring, realize how silly you just looked and improve your debate skills.

Elsewhere.

[-] Badeendje@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

My red herring? You open by making a statement that could easily mean eliminating all Jews and when asked what you mean you refuse to specify (or concoct some kumbaya alternate reality fiction). Instead you blurt that the question is flippant. And now you say red herring as if that somehow absolves you of taking a position that has no basis in reality or a position that just wishes all Jews to dissapear.

The situation in Israël is neither clear cut nor easy. And since one side (Israël) holds all the power I would expect that side to come up with a just and equitable solution that works for Palestinians too.. and that is not what they are currently doing... We see war mongering genocidal idealogs run their campaign of destruction simply because Bibi needs war to stay out of jail. The reason why these right wing extremist settlers are in the Israeli government in turn has its basis in constant shelling of Israel proper. Which continue because Israël refuses to provide their neighbors with an equitable solution and not keep settling the west bank.

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[-] eacapesamsara@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 weeks ago

The same thing that happened to the Jews that lived there for millenia before Israel was created, the become normal citizens with no special rights or mandates, and are actually subject to laws intended on keeping all people safe, not just Jews. It worked continuously for millenia through dozens of different ruling states with a half dozen ruling religions, the state of Israel and it's fascism utilizing ng Jewish supremacy as a base ideology fucked that up.

[-] Badeendje@lemmy.world -1 points 2 weeks ago

Well, that looks like it ignores reality a bit. That the current state of Israel is doing fucked up stuff atm gets no arguement from me, but it did not happen in a vacuum.

Spouting revisionist nonsense about how equal the Jews where treated all over the world also does not help the situation either. Nor does ignoring the current situation and how if the state where to be dissolved and a new state created in its place that would give all people of the region equal rights and protections.. they would magically all get along.

So again.. what then? What would you suggest?

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io -1 points 2 weeks ago

Spouting revisionist nonsense about how equal the Jews where treated all over the world also does not help the situation either.

I mean in many places they were. Raging antisemitism was mostly a European problem. That's why they kept fleeing to Muslim lands.

[-] Badeendje@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago

Uhm.. what? Kept fleeing to Muslim lands? Antisemitism a European thing.. wow.. someone did a number on you man.. I'd suggest you ask for a refund from school.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io -1 points 2 weeks ago

Uh... What? Yes they kept fleeing to Muslim lands at least learn the history of the people whose Apartheid you're rooting for (not that Israel represents Jews as a whole I know that's not the case). A large fraction of Egyptian Jews, for example, were originally from Spain and were expelled due to the Reconquista, and the first two Aliyahs were European Jews escaping from pogroms to the more tolerant Ottoman empire. Also modern Muslim anti-semitism was, in fact, imported from Europe in the 19th century and strongly intensified due to the conflict with Zionists. Again, learn the history of the people whose Apartheid you're rooting for and the people whose oppression you're rooting for before you make ignorant statements again.

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[-] kubica@fedia.io 17 points 2 weeks ago

I'm not sure that is as useful as it sounds. Yes you are trying to establish some pressure but then you might get lost on technicalities of their actions instead of focusing on the bigger picture.

[-] catloaf@lemm.ee 18 points 2 weeks ago

There's no "might". The US set a red line of an invasion in Rafah. Israel rolled right over that line with tanks and airstrikes. Nothing happened.

[-] spankmonkey@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago

Something did happen though, the US gave even more aid and support to Israel.

[-] MelastSB@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 weeks ago

Yes, but Russia doesn't have nuclear weap... I mean, Russia doesn't control Congr... Totally different situation ok!

[-] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 6 points 2 weeks ago

putins are fictional and nothing happens. If we do do one it will happen and right now they don't want to get that involved.

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 weeks ago

Who accepts them tho?

[-] OlinOfTheHillPeople@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

Republicans.

[-] index@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 weeks ago

Make sure to listen very well to what former germans veteran diplomats have to say and go back to work

[-] celsiustimeline@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 weeks ago

Ehhhhh, maybe, maybe not. Given the fact that all interested parties are nuclear powers, pushing a psychopath to the point where they feel cornered might not have the effect this 78 year old thinks it might. Under what circumstances does bombing Moscow with Taurus missiles improve Ukraine's situation? The only strategy is attrition. The allies have more resources than Russia does, so continue sanctions, and increase sanctions to other countries if they do business with Russia. Cut off the money and watch Russia fumble. Keep offering them off-ramps. Every single "red line" Putin has mentioned has been a nothingburger. If this statement was made in earnest, it's a bad strategy. De-escalation through escalation isn't working for Putin, and I doubt it would work for us.

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this post was submitted on 29 Sep 2024

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