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[-] TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world 214 points 1 month ago

I am so tired of people, especially people who pretend to be computer experts online, completely failing to understand what Moore's Law is.

Moore's Law != "Technology improves over time"

It's an observation that semiconductor transistor density roughly doubles every ~2 years. That's it. It doesn't apply to anything else.

And also for the record, Moore's Law has been dead for a long time now. Getting large transistor density improvements is hard.

[-] Phen@lemmy.eco.br 22 points 1 month ago

I'm gonna go on "no stupid question" and ask why my old hard drives aren't doubling in size.

[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 27 points 1 month ago

You need to properly feed, water and fertilize them. If you don't do this, your old hard drives will just waste away until they're just a few megabytes, not flourish into giant petabyte trees.

[-] johannesvanderwhales@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

Did you try evolving them?

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 2 points 1 month ago

You have to walk around in the right environment otherwise they're all going to turn into generic eevees, and you don't want that

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[-] WolfLink@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 month ago

Also the improvements in computer speed from Moore’s law were from Denard Scaling, which says with transistors 2x smaller, you can run things 2x faster but produce 2x as much heat.

Heat dissipation has been the bottleneck for a long time now.

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[-] lemmyng@lemmy.ca 116 points 1 month ago

Moore's law is about circuit density, not about storage, so the premise is invalidated in the first place.

There is research being done into 5D storage crystals, where a disc can theoretically hold up to 360TB of data, but don't hold your breath about them being available soon.

[-] dulce_3t_decorum_3st@lemmy.world 24 points 1 month ago

That would certainly benefit my Plex server setup

[-] sorghum@sh.itjust.works 16 points 1 month ago

I always thought the holographic 3D discs were going to be a really cool medium in the infacy days of bluray and hd-dvd. I can't believe that's is been over a decade since the company behind it went bankrupt.

[-] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee 3 points 1 month ago

Probably a stupid question, but how can the crystals be 5d if oir universe is (at a meaningful scale) 4d?

[-] lemmyng@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 month ago

Not a stupid question at all. Here's the Wikipedia article for it. The significant part is this:

The 5-dimensional discs [have] tiny patterns printed on 3 layers within the discs. Depending on the angle they are viewed from, these patterns can look completely different. This may sound like science fiction, but it's basically a really fancy optical illusion. In this case, the 5 dimensions inside of the discs are the size and orientation in relation to the 3-dimensional position of the nanostructures. The concept of being 5-dimensional means that one disc has several different images depending on the angle that one views it from, and the magnification of the microscope used to view it. Basically, each disc has multiple layers of micro and macro level images.

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[-] catloaf@lemm.ee 2 points 1 month ago

Wavelength could add a dimension. For example, if you have an optical disc (2D) that can be read and written separately by red and blue lasers, that makes it 3D.

[-] GiveMemes@jlai.lu 2 points 1 month ago

That's neat, so it's using a trick of mathematics and physics to store info in greater dimensionality than just what the physical universe is limited to? Kinda like how we can use coordinates to represent 4d points on a graph even if we can't really visualize it?

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[-] HamsterRage@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 month ago

This is true, but.....

Moore's Law can be thought of as an observation about the exponential growth of technology power per $ over time. So yeah, not Moore's Law, but something like it that ordinary people can see evolving right in front of their eyes.

So a $40 Raspberry Pi today runs benchmarks 4.76 times faster than a multimillion dollar Cray supercomputer from 1978. Is that Moore's Law? No, but the bang/$ curve probably looks similar to it over those 30 years.

You can see a similar curve when you look at data transmission speed and volume per $ over the same time span.

And then for storage. Going from 5 1/4" floppy disks, or effing cassette drives, back on the earliest home computers. Or the round tapes we used to cart around when I started working in the 80's which had a capacity of around 64KB. To micro SD cards with multi-terabyte capacity today.

Same curve.

Does anybody care whether the storage is a tape, or a platter, or 8 platters, or circuitry? Not for this purpose.

The implication of, "That's not Moore's Law", is that the observation isn't valid. Which is BS. Everyone understands that that the true wonderment is how your Bang/$ goes up exponentially over time.

Even if you're technical you have to understand that this factor drives the applications.

Why aren't we all still walking around with Sony Walkmans? Because small, cheap hard drives enabled the iPod. Why aren't we all still walking around with iPods? Because cheap data volume and speed enabled streaming services.

While none of this involves counting transistors per inch on a chip, it's actually more important/interesting than Moore's Law. Because it speaks to how to the power of the technology available for everyday uses is exploding over time.

[-] ch00f@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

Moore’s law factored in cost, not just what was physically possible.

The complexity for minimum component costs has increased at a rate of roughly a factor of two per year. Certainly over the short term this rate can be expected to continue, if not to increase. Over the longer term, the rate of increase is a bit more uncertain, although there is no reason to believe it will not remain nearly constant for at least 10 years.

[-] random_character_a@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

About 5 years ago I pirated all the games ever normally published for my childhood gaming system and my friends different gaming system.

If I went to the past and told that to my younger self and that it all fits in a pinky finger nail sized medium, I wouldn't have belived me. It's just so far out there.

[-] rebelsimile@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago

Yeah taken as a guideline and observation that computer speeds/storage/etc continue to improve, I think it’s fair. It may not always be double, but it is still significantly different than other physical processes which have “stagnated” by a similar metric (like top speed on an average vehicle or miles per gallon).

[-] jlh@lemmy.jlh.name 32 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Hard drive density has stagnated. There haven't been any major technology breakthroughs since 750GB PMR drives came out in 2006. Most of the capacity improvements since then have come from minor materials improvements and stacking increasing amounts of platters per drive, which has reached its limit. The best drives we have, 24tb, have 10 platters, when drives in the 2000's only had 1-4 platters.

Meanwhile, semiconductors have been releasing new manufacturing processes every few years and haven't stopped.

Moore's Law somewhat held for hard drives up until 2010, but since then it has only been growing at a quarter of the rate.

Right now there are only 24TB HDDs, with 28TB enterprise options available with SMR. The big breakthrough maybe coming next year is HAMR, which would allow for 30tb drives. Meanwhile, 60TB 2.5"/e3.s SSDs are now pretty common in the enterprise space, with some niche 100TB ssds also available in that form factor.

I think if HAMR doesn't catch on fast enough, SSDs will start to outcompete HDDs on price per terabyte. We will likely see 16TB M.2 Ssds very soon. Street prices for m.2 drives are currently $45/TB compared to $14/TB for HDDs. Only a 3:1 advantage, or less than 4 years in Moore's Law terms.

Many enterprise customers have already switched over to SSDs after considering speed, density, and power, so if HDDs don't keep up on price, there won't be any reason to choose them over SSDs.

sources: https://youtu.be/3l2lCsWr39A https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/hdds/seagates-mozaic-3-hamr-platform-targets-30tb-hdds-and-beyond

[-] hark@lemmy.world 15 points 1 month ago

I've only looked at the consumer space and all I've noticed is that SSD prices were finally going down after stagnating for years, but then the manufacturers said that prices are too low and they intentionally slowed down production to increase prices, so prices are actually higher than they were a year ago.

[-] jlh@lemmy.jlh.name 2 points 1 month ago

Sometes the prices go up, but they steadily go down over time.

This chart is really good for seeing storage prices

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hard_disk_drives#/media/File%3AHistorical_cost_of_computer_memory_and_storage.svg

[-] hark@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

Right, over the long term prices go down, but it still greatly annoys me that they jacked up prices in the short term. Thankfully I have no need to purchase any storage and won't for years.

[-] toddestan@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

That chart doesn't really show the recent price hike. Late last year, I bought an 8TB Samsung SATA SSD for $350. If I wanted to buy that same drive today, it would be $630.

[-] random_character_a@lemmy.world 23 points 1 month ago

Do you have to archive all the porn in the Internet?

[-] AdamEatsAss@lemmy.world 48 points 1 month ago

"We do these things not because they are easy. But because we are hard!" -JFK

[-] random_character_a@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

Did I just pave way to the greatest joke today.

[-] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 17 points 1 month ago

With how often videos get removed or set to private? Yes.

[-] lvxferre@mander.xyz 18 points 1 month ago

I gave the subject a check. From Tom's Hardware, industry predictions are like:

Year Capacity (in TB)
2022 1~22
2025 2~40
2028 6~60
2031 7~75
2034 8~90
2037 10~100

Or, doubling roughly each 4y. Based on that the state of art disks would 500TB roughly in 2040. Make it ~2050 for affordable external storage.

However note that this is extrapolation over a future estimation, and estimation itself is also an extrapolation over past trends. Might as well guess what I'm going to have for lunch exactly one year for now, it'll be as accurate as that.

To complicate things further currently you have competition between two main techs, spinning disks vs. solid state. SSD might be evolving on a different pace, and as your typical SSD has less capacity it might even push the average for customers back a bit (as they swap HDDs with SSDs with slightly lower capacity).

[-] anamethatisnt@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

And I was impressed by Seagate launching their Mozaic 3+ 32TB HDDs...

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

That's honestly intense. I would be terrified of having that much data in one place

[-] adavis@lemmy.world 15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

While not hard drives, at $dayjob we bought a new server out with 16 x 64TB nvme drives. We don't even need the speed of nvme for this machines roll. It was the density that was most appealing.

It feels crazy having a petabytes of storage (albeit with some lost to raid redundancy). Is this what it was like working in tech up till the mid 00s with significant jumps just turning up?

[-] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

This is exactly what it was like, except you didn't need it as much.

Storage used to cover how much a person needed and maybe 2-8x more, then datasets shot upwards with audio/mp3, then video, then again with Ai.

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Well hell, it's not like it's your money.

[-] jlh@lemmy.jlh.name 11 points 1 month ago

a petabye of ssds is probably cheaper than a petabye of hdds when you account for rack costs, electricity costs, and maintenance.

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Not a problem I've ever faced before, admittedly

[-] toddestan@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The size increase in hard drives around that time was insane. Compared to the mid-90's which was just a decade ago, hard drives capacities increased around 100 times. On average, drive capacities were doubling every year.

Then things slowed down. In the past 20 years, we've maybe increased the capacities 30-40 times for hard drives.

Flash memory, on the other hand, is a different story. Sometime around 2002-3 or so I paid something like $45 for my first USB flash drive - a whole 128MB of storage. Today I can buy one that's literally 1000 times larger, for around a third of that price. (I still have that drive, and it still works too!)

[-] 9point6@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

I guess you're expected to set those up in a RAID 5 or 6 (or similar) setup to have redundancy in case of failure.

Rebuilding after a failure would be a few days of squeaky bum time though.

[-] Skydancer@pawb.social 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Absolutely not. At those densities, the write speed isn't high enough to trust to RAID 5 or 6, particularly on a new system with drives from the same manufacturing batch (which may fail around the same time). You'd be looking at a RAID 10 or even a variant with more than two drives per mirror. Regardless of RAID level, at least a couple should be reserved as hot spares as well.

EDIT: RAID 10 doesn't necessarily rebuild any faster than RAID 5/6, but the write speed is relevant because it determines the total time to rebuild. That determines the likelihood that another drive in the array fails (more likely during a rebuild due to added drive stress). with RAID 10, it's less likely the drive will be in the same span. Regardless, it's always worth restating that RAID is no substitute for your 3-2-1 backups.

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[-] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

At raid6, rebuilds are 4.2 roentgens, not great but they're not horrible. Keep old backups.but the data isn't irreplaceable.

Raid5 is suicide if you care about your data.

[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

I'm more shocked how little I need extra space!
I'm rocking an ancient 1TB for backups. And my main is a measly 512GB SSD.
But I don't store movies anymore, because we always find what we want to see online, and I don't store games I don't actively use, because they are in my GOG or Steam libraries.
With 1 gigabit per second internet, it only takes a few minutes to download anyways.

Come to think of it, my phone has almost as much space for use, with the 512GB internal storage. 😋
Maybe I'm a fringe case IDK. But it's a long time since storage ceased to be a problem.

[-] anamethatisnt@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

I download both windows and linux offline installers when I buy games at gog.com, it's one of the reasons I buy there.

[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

I can understand that having your own copy is nice, especially if the service is closed for some reason.
I just don't bother doing that anymore, I prefer browsing my library on GOG instead of a file-manager.

[-] Cyberflunk@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

2028: ~363TB 2029: ~439TB 2030: ~531TB

This is what I came up with.

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[-] udon@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

We can argue as much as we want about whether moore's law covers technological development in general or be pedantic like good old fundamental Christians and only read what the words say.

The bigger problem is that we have reached the era of what we could tentatively call "wal s'eroom". Thanks to enshittification (another one of those slippery words!) I predict that technological progress reverses from now on by 50% every 2 years.

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this post was submitted on 05 Oct 2024
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