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submitted 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) by dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

As the title states I am confused on this matter. The way I see it, the USA has a two party system and in the next few weeks they’re either going to have Trump or Harris as president, come inauguration day. With this in mind doesn’t it make sense to vote for the person least likely to escalate the situation even more.

Giving your vote to an independent or worse not voting at all, just gives more of a chance for Trump to win the election and then who knows what crazy stuff he will allow, or encourage, Israel to get away with.

I really don’t get the logic. As sure nobody wants to vote for a party allowing these heinous crimes to be committed, but given you’re getting one of them shouldn’t you be voting for the one that will be the least horrible of the two.

Please don’t come at me with pro-Israeli rhetoric as this isn’t the post for that, I’m asking about why people would make such choices and I’m not up for debate on the Middle East, on this post, you can DM me for that.

Edit: Bedtime here now so will respond to incoming comments in the morning, love starting the day with an inbox full 😊.

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[-] PanArab@lemm.ee -4 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

Her stance is practically indistinguishable from Trump's and enables Israel to continue the genocide.

[-] ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk -2 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

It feels like watching Trump burn the middle east to the ground instead of Harris would be cold comfort for anyone proud of not actively voting for a different genocide abetting candidate. There is no anti-genocide candidate, sadly, but one party has at least the shadow of a conscience that can be pressured later.

[-] greywolf0x1@lemmy.ml 27 points 11 hours ago
[-] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 8 points 8 hours ago

https://kamalaharris.com/issues/

Looks like the campaign has a whole bunch of things besides "orange man bad". All there on the official page easy to find.

It seems like someone saying the entire campaign is "orange man bad" hasn't bothered to listen to anything being said and is just focusing on the most salient point in a bad faith effort to discredit them.

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[-] Ashelyn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 10 hours ago

Wow, it's almost as if someone being bad can be for multiple reasons!

[-] macabrett@lemmy.ml 3 points 8 hours ago

Yeah, for instance: funding a genocide, xenophobic immigration policy, building the wall, dropping the ball on covid right before delta/omicron, a lack of healthcare reform, the inability to protect abortion rights, being a cop, denigrating anti-genocide protestors, racially profiling Muslims at your events

[-] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 2 points 8 hours ago

inability to protect abortion rights

"I was robbed"

"I blame you more than the thief because you should have protected your stuff better!"

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[-] sweetpotato@lemmy.ml 6 points 9 hours ago

Because it's a far right party. Trump happens to be more far right, but that doesn't change that fact. I'm not voting for far right, neoliberal, genocidal freaks.

At how many genocides do you draw the line? If the democrats committed a second one along with the Palestinian genocide they are committing right now? You'd again say trump would be worse, vote for Harris. If they committed three? Four? No matter what they do, Trump would do worse, so again you'd tell us to vote for Harris.

I draw the line at a genocide and at everything this neoliberal party stands for. I am not giving that party my approval because it is going in the exact opposite direction of what I stand for. At some point, the lesser evil is too evil.

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 0 points 4 hours ago

I completely understand this. But, assisting in the lesser evil outcome is always worth the voting effort. If you don't, then even worse evil will be on the ballot next time, and your voice can be counted on being ignored once again.

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[-] Aceticon@lemmy.world 18 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

Three points:

  • Biden and Harris are right now with their actions physically supporting the Genocide. Trump talks about supporting the Genocide even more. Well, guess what: Trump lies shamelessly (as the Democrat propaganda here doesn't stop reminding us of in everything but, "strangely", not this subject) and isn't even competent when it comes to actual execution. So on one side we have an absolute certainty that the candidate supports the Genocide and on the other one we have a probability that its so based on the statements of a known liar. I would say the claims that Trump is worse on this are doing a lot of relying on Trump's word (on this subject alone) in order to elevate his evilness of this above that of people who are actually, right now, shamelessly and unwaveringly supporting the Genocide with actual actions.
  • If the Leadership of Democrat Party manages to whilst refusing to walk back on their active support of a Genocide, win the election with a "otherwise it's Trump" strategy, they will move even further to the Right because that confirms to them that they can do whatever they want and still keep in power. Now, keep in mind that the Democract Party leadership already supports Fascism (ethno-Fascism, even, which is the same kind as the Nazis practiced), so far only abroad (whilst Trump does support Fascism at home) so there isn't much more to the Right of that before Fascism at home. You see, for a Leftie voting Democrat now will probably be the least bad option in the short term, but it's very likely to be the worst option in the long term because it consolidates and even accelerates the move of the Democrat Party to the Right.
  • Some people simply put their moral principles above "yeah but" excuses and won't vote for people supporting the mass murder of children.

In summary:

  • Trump's Genocide support is a probability based on his word, willingness and ability to fulfill it (i.e. his competence at doing it), whilst Harris' is an actual proven fact with actions happening right now.
  • A vote for the Democrats whilst their policies are so far to the Right that they're supporting modern Nazis with the very weapons they use to mass murder civilians of the "wrong" ethnicity, if it leads to a Harris victory will consolidate this de facto Far-Right status of the party and maintain momentum in going Rightwards. Voting like that is, IMHO, a Strategically stupid choice even if the case can be made (and that's the entirety of what the Democrat propaganda here does) that Tactically it's the least bad choice.
  • Some people can't just swallow their moral principles, especially for making a choice which isn't even a "choose a good thing" but actually a "choose a lesser evil", and "Thou shall not mass murder thousands of babies" is pretty strong as moral principles go.
[-] vfreire85@lemmy.ml 7 points 10 hours ago

i agree mostly with you, even thought i'm a foreigner. i'd just like to point out that even though there are doubts about trump continuing america's support of a genocide (and i believe he won't have that much of a problem since both major parties in america support it), there's everything else about him.

and also, everything else about the dems too. let's just say that major lawfare campaigns against progressive governments here in latin america have been conducted under dem rule in the u.s.. brazil and uruguay had their coups d'état orchestrated by the johnson administration. honduras, paraguay and brazil suffered lawfare coups under the obama administration.

[-] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 2 points 8 hours ago
  • If the Leadership of Democrat Party manages to whilst refusing to walk back on their active support of a Genocide, win the election with a "otherwise it's Trump" strategy, they will move even further to the Right because that confirms to them that they can do whatever they want and still keep in power.

If the Republicans get absolutely walloped in the election for running a wannabe dictator, it will show them that the extremism isn't going to work and they have to run reasonable candidates to have a chance at winning. Then next election when they present someone who isn't a megalomaniacal idiot who wants to be a "Dictator Day 1" it will require the Democrats to do better and put more effort than "not a dictator."

Letting the Republicans be this close will cause the Democrats to move further right because the leftists aren't going to vote for them anyway, and they sure as fuck won't vote for Republicans, so moving to the right to steal 1000 votes from Republicans is better than moving left and gaining 1500 votes from people who otherwise wouldn't vote.

[-] Aceticon@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago

Whilst the first paragraph does make some sense, it presumes that in such a situation the Republicans would not conclude it's the style of the candidate rather than his ideas that caused the rout. That might be a little optimist considering that the traditional Republicans' were just as far right economically before and almost as right in Moral issues, but they had a different style of candidate (remember Reagan?).

It might also be a little optimist to expect an absolute walloping of anybody, Republican or Democrat.

That said, it's a valid scenario, though it relies on very low probability events.

The second paragraph is inconsistent with every single thing the Democrats have done in their pre-electoral propaganda, from the whole "vote us or get Trump" (something which wouldn't scare the Right) to the raft of pre-election promises on Left-wing subjects like student debt forgiveness or tightening regulations on giants such as Telecoms a little bit. If they really thought they could win with only votes stolen from the Right, they would be making promises which appeal to the Right, not the Left.

Besides, the whole idea that Rightwing voters would go for the less-Rightwing party rather than the more-Rightwing party is hilarious: why go for the copy if you can get the real deal?

From what I've seen in other countries were Center-Left Parties totally dropped their appeal to the Left and overtly went to appeal to the Right, they got pummeled because the Maths don't add up and, as I said above, Rightwing votes will choose the "genuine article" over the "wannabes".

It's not by chance that in Europe even whilst becoming full-on Neoliberal parties, Center-Left parties maintained a leftwing discourse and would throw a bone to the Left once in a while (say, minimum wage raises) when in government.

[-] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 0 points 4 hours ago

It's not by chance that in Europe even whilst becoming full-on Neoliberal parties, Center-Left parties maintained a leftwing discourse and would throw a bone to the Left once in a while (say, minimum wage raises) when in government.

Are you talking about nations with better electoral systems that can support more than 2 parties?

Yes, in a 3+ party system Party A moving closer to Party B to take 1000 votes from them but losing 1500 votes to Party C in the process is a bad play.

In a "Winner takes all" 2 party system where the only thing that matters is having 1 more vote than your opponent to have 100% of the power, Party A moving closer to Party B to take 1000 votes from them is a better position even if it causes them to lose 1900 votes from people who now won't vote for either party. Moving further away from Party B to get 1000 votes from people who are refusing to vote is a losing position if it causes them to lose 501 votes to Party B.

In a 2 party system chasing the people who are actually voting will always be twice as good than chasing the people who aren't voting.

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[-] juliebean@lemm.ee 13 points 11 hours ago

it's like people forget that trump was already president before. the Israel/Palestine conflict is not new. i'm pretty sure every US president since Israel was founded has supported Israel in every form the conflict has taken. there's more gas on the fire now, but it's not like trump wasn't stoking the flames when he was president last time, and it's weird to think he wouldn't actually contine the bipartisan US policy of providing material aid to Israel, regardless of what fucked up shit they do.

both candidates will support genocide, so at that point you can either not vote, and just let the chips fall where they may, vote for a third party candidate who won't support genocide (because they won't get elected), or choose between the two genocidal options based on other factors, and try and minimize the damage in other arenas.

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[-] Snapz@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago

I reject your original false premise that "so many" are actually doing this.

I have faith that pro-Palestinian folks are on the whole, rational and empathetic enough to know that trump will end the comfort, and even lives, of so many groups of vulnerable people, decidedly inclusive of the Palestinians there. We elect Harris today so that our democracy lives another day. That preserves our rights to fill the streets in protest and interrupt commerce until Israel's genocide ends WHEN Kamala actually has the power to stop it, after being sworn in.

Until then, we stay vocal and we place the pressure to end this where it firmly belongs - Netanyahu and the Israelis instigating and enabling this historically horrible thing.

[-] mlg@lemmy.world 9 points 11 hours ago

They already lived through 4 years of Trump and have decided it is worth doing it again instead of letting the party most currently responsible for said genocide to win.

Point being that Harris has outright refused to meet any sort of demands on Israel. There was no reduction in arms nor any restrictions placed on Israel, and Harris fully intends to continue that policy.

If she loses, it means that she failed to meet her constituents demands, which means they'd have to actually meet them in the next election to win.

Also because I have a hard time seeing how anyone who lost entire family trees would listen to "uM AkShuLly TrUmP woUld bE 9999x WorSe, wE jUst NeEd tO ProTest aFTER tHe ELeCTion" as if we didn't just full send billions of dollars in munitions and weapons to Israel.

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca -2 points 4 hours ago

“uM AkShuLly TrUmP woUld bE 9999x WorSe, wE jUst NeEd tO ProTest aFTER tHe ELeCTion”

Trump promises to arrest and deport you for your protest in support of Hamas/Iran. Only reason to be anti genocide is you being an Iranian agent.

[-] ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml 0 points 3 hours ago

Only reason to be anti genocide is you being an Iranian agent.

What a thing to say. Really, just step back and look at the words you wrote.

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[-] gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 13 hours ago

Giving your vote to an independent or worse not voting at all, just gives more of a chance for Trump to win the election

If you don't live in one of the 7 states that matter in an election then you can vote your morality, safe in the knowledge that the EC will ignore your input, anyway

Inb4 some dipshit mentions down ballots when we're talking about the fucking presidential election

[-] NutWrench@lemmy.ml 33 points 15 hours ago

The U.S. also has a huge defense industry that has made people ridiculously rich at the expense of U.S. taxpayers. Those billionaires are heavily invested in the defense industry, so it's not in their interests that wars end at all.

This is that "military-industrial complex" that former President Eisenhower warned us about so many years ago. His concern was that the U.S. would become bogged down in an endless series of "forever wars" that do nothing but transfer wealth to the already-wealthy.

Keeping that military industrial complex well-fed is the reason why so many politicians have such a boner for war. Not only to keep their wealthy sponsors happy, but to keep tax money and jobs flowing to their states, which just happen to manufacture war materiel.

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[-] reddit_sux@lemmy.world 26 points 15 hours ago

Single issue voters just seem to be the excuse of Democrat party for if they lose.

Just like election fraud is of the Republican party.

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this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2024
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