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[-] SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I think most commenters here are missing the point.

There is a more extreme reaction to transgender people as opposed to gay or lesbian people, because of issues like sports and bathrooms. And that hits at people's sense of injustice. For example if you have a young daughter, a lot of people will hate the idea of a person with a penis going into the women's room and being around their little girl. Or if that daughter grows up and joins a sports team, the idea of somebody who is hormonally male and thus naturally more muscular competing against your daughter is unpleasant.

Put differently, I think a lot of people we now classify as 'transphobic' don't actually have much problem with trans people themselves. Rather, with how the efforts to ensure trans people receive the full treatment of their chosen gender can affect the rest of society.

For me personally, I don't know what the answer is. I generally don't care which bathroom you use as long as you wash your hands. I have no problem with anyone presenting themselves to the world as whatever they wish, if it makes you happier than by all means. At the same time though, I don't think it's transphobic to point out that somebody who is largely or entirely biologically male will have a natural competitive advantage in the field of sports.
So while I certainly don't want to exclude anybody, I think there is at least a little justification for restricting some women's sports to those who are genetically female.

[-] CitricBase@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

I think that one thing you and other centrists are missing is that any kind of regulation isn't just a regulation on trans women, it's a regulation on ALL women. It won't be just trans women that will be put in a position of constantly having their genitals checked.

Be it for bathrooms, sports, whatever, you're opening us up to a world where anyone that fancies themselves an authority will feel empowered to sexually assault any women they want. That's what's at stake here. This is a women's issue, not just a trans issue. Hell, even men will end up getting harassed in bathrooms.

Meanwhile, actual trans people are going to by and large steer clear of segregated contact sports like they've always done, feeling the pain of exclusion and marginalization while deserving none of it.

[-] LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I don't think anyone really cares about sports or bathrooms when it comes down to it It's all about the patriarchy. Not a single person I've met has mentioned a woman who became a man going into a men's restroom as a problem. Or them entering mens sports outside of the dimly vieled "oh well they could get hurt and a man needs to protect them from making their own decisions"

It all comes back to people thinking men have to take care of women because they can't take care of themselves without assistance.

It is a reflection of how weak the people who think such are. And projecting and trying to control others lives because they don't believe they can take care of themselves.

If you believe in people having freedom, stop trying to fucking chain them to your ideals. (Not aimed at you specifically)

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[-] BigMacHole@lemm.ee 1 points 1 month ago

LoL at thinking Republicans don't want people with Penises in their Daughter's Restroom! Conservatives are LITERALLY making it ILLEGAL for people with Penises and Beards to use anything BUT their Daughter's Restroom!

[-] josefo@leminal.space 1 points 1 month ago

Conservatives are afraid of change, because they control current status quo. They can't let people escape from that control, so every nail that is a little outside it's hole gets hammered.

In short, they rather prefer trans (and broadly queers) to hide or die, unless they can control them. Everyone different from what they can control is a big danger. Imagine if everyone could be like they feel like? Conservatives see this as chaos, they are the guardians of peace and good values, so anything not already controlled by them is the opposite, chaos, destruction, fire.

That's why they rarely present anything new, their policies and general opinion tend to fight the natural evolution of civilization. USA, as obviously all of the American Continent, was built by immigrants (and slaves). Now they fight immigrants, undocumented ones mostly, because they can't control them. And we know what happened when 'the libs' back then tried to end slavery, you know, other people that they CONTROLLED.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

[-] Smoogs@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

A lot of conservatives want to simplify life because they have a simple mind.

[-] inv3r510n@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Because queerness (trans, gender non conforming, gender fluid, agender, bigender and related) threatens hierarchy.

In western society regardless of how ‘progressive’ some parts of it have gotten, for the majority there’s still a strict hierarchy. Man most important, then woman, then children first boys then girls. Trans people completely disrupt this hierarchy by being able to change what they are and those who cling to hierarchy freak the fuck out over it.

Then there’s the sexual panic, a straight man who’s insecure is gonna freak out if the woman they think is cute actually has a penis.

[-] graphene@lemm.ee 1 points 1 month ago

Yes! Screw the patriarchy

[-] GiveOver@feddit.uk 0 points 1 month ago

If that were true, then it would be trans men getting the most attention because they're the ones cheating their way up this hierarchy. In my experience, 99% of the hate is directed at trans women.

[-] inv3r510n@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

If the transphobes thought trans men were men then your comment would be accurate. But they just see them as confused women and easy to just ignore them like they ignore cis women.

(You are right about trans women bearing the brunt of the hate, and I think so much of that is sexual panic from cishet men about finding a penis owner attractive)

[-] Steak@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 month ago

I don't agree. For ages in any life or death situation it is woman and children first. Men are the strongest of the bunch, any respectable man is putting his children and wife onto a lifeboat before themselves. You'd have a hard time finding a father/husband who wouldn't.

[-] CitricBase@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago

Your little scenario explicitly presumes that the man would be the one in charge, making this decision.

[-] Steak@lemmy.ca -1 points 1 month ago

Who else would be in charge of a man making the decision to let others go ahead of himself? It is a self made decision, and a selfless one. So of course he is the one making the decision. A woman could just as easily make this decision, if she did would you still be saying "well of course she did, she's the one on charge!". I hope not. You just don't like the fact that when shit hits the fan, oftentimes men are the ones who step up and help others and even sacrifice themselves. Have whatever qualms you will with men, but at least give them credit where they deserve it.

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[-] auzy@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

We have a lot of LGBTI people in our climbing group

I have never had an issue with any of them

But the people trying to be hyper masculine? Yep..

I feel like it's because they never left high school. A lot of them are simply trying the same thing that worked when they are a kid. Everyone else grows up

[-] PagingDoctorLove@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Their systems of power rely on having an "in" group and an "out" group. Overt racism is less acceptable these days because now there are brown Republicans, but transphobia? Very in.

They're just choosing a new group to "other" so that we don't realize they're coming for everyone who doesn't fit into their narrow worldview.

[-] elucubra@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 month ago
[-] ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Because stirring up hate against vulnerable minorities, by positioning them as a threat is a well tested and effective technique for the power hungry to gain and retain power. And it's effective, because it works by pulling people in and making all of the conversation about whether or not it's right to hate on the group they're targeting.

[-] Donebrach@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Because fascists need a ~scary other~ to scapegoat to erode everyone’s rights.

[-] hperrin@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

It seems that way because the minority of people who are against trans people are very loud and obnoxious, and their voices are heavily amplified by sites like Facebook and Twitter.

[-] gerryflap@feddit.nl 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

They're conservative. The whole name is based on the principle that they want to maintain the old way rather than progress. I think it stems from fear of a changing world. The old world with the old rules provided safety, it was understandable, the rules were clear, and the rules didn't hurt them. Now some people are "attacking" their world, their rules, everything that offers them safety and understanding. So they feel attacked.

It's the same thing, but with another subject every time. Whether it is women getting rights, which threatens their safe world with clear gender roles. Or gay people, who threaten the simple rules like "boys love girls", "in order to be successful, get a job, marry, and get kids". Or non-white people getting rights. What if they vote for things that "we" don't want? What if "they" ruin the world that "we" got so used to.

Trans and especially non-binary people are just the next group in line that threatens their simple world. When men are people born as men and women are people born as women, it's way easier to force people into the traditional roles. The old rules still work, "boy marries girl, gets kids". And when they speak out about their "concerns* they are (rightfully) called out for it. So they become defensive and start doing whatever they're doing now.

[-] statler_waldorf@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 month ago

I don't think it's quite that simple. I'm a dad to a FtM trans teenager and I was born in the early 80s. There's a lot of "inertia" to the worldview presented as "normal" in education, media, and society at large just in my lifetime.

I think the first time I learned that homosexuality was a thing was from Ellen. I know now that everyone isn't hetero but every relationship I saw around me, in books, in movies for my the most formative years of my life defined it as "normal" in my brain.

All I knew outside of "gender norms" was Bugs Bunny in drag, Bosom Buddies, Some Like it Hot, Rocky Horror. It was "not normal", a joke.

I come from a liberal family with a liberal upbringing. I've considered myself an LGBT ally for a long time, but I still have a lot of implicit biases in my head.

When my child came out as trans, those implicit biases were the first things into my head. I love my son for who he is, want him to be happy, and fully support him. When he decided to dress fem for the first time after hatching my implicit biases were confused. But it doesn't matter what those biases say because I consciously support what makes him happy.

My parents were born in the 50s. They are both unabashed feminists but they had another 30 years of that "inertia" to overcome when my son hatched. They still occasionally forget the right pronouns. His one remaining great grandmother has almost 20 years more inertia to overcome and still uses the wrong name occasionally.

I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you to an extent. These things threaten their "inertia" and it's hard to question yourself like that. It's easier to dig your heels in and fight back.

[-] gerryflap@feddit.nl 1 points 1 month ago

I think we agree yeah. More progressive people will be more open to challenge their "inertia" with new ideas that they believe are right. I think more conservative people give in more to the feeling of these "new" ideas being "wrong". That doesn't mean that more progressive people don't feel those same feelings. I'm in my early 30s and I notice that I do start to struggle more with the difference between what I was taught (and thus what I subconsciously sometimes feel) and how I perceive the world now from a logical perspective. I strongly support people being trans or non-binary because I feel like it makes the world a better place, but deep inside there's still some part that feels like it's wrong for people to deviate from the gender rules I've been fed from birth.

[-] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 month ago

It's artificial boosting of the same bigotry that's been ongoing for generations. The new part switching the target.

See, there's been a very concerted effort to radicalize the right wing of the American populace by media oligarchs. It's part of an overall strategy going back to at least the post-nixon era.

Want to crush black people? Find a way to villainize them indirectly. "Inner city" crime. Step up arrests for things that are disproportionately a part of black people's lives. Spread drugs into the chaos brought about by destabilizing black communities to engender greater violence between gangs. And it worked. Look at how many black people are in jail compared to pretty much any other group.

Go back to Stonewall, when the biggest movements for gay rights got going hard, and remember that trans people were involved from the beginning, but didn't have a convenient label, they didn't have a way to be a distinct group. Gay rights efforts worked to some degree. Enough that the far right plans to use gay people as the enemy had to find another target the same way that they had to change targets from black people to Hispanic people in the form of "illegal aliens".

When your plan rests on fomenting anger, hate, and fear to stir up the lowest common denominator of a populace you have to have a target, ideally more than one since there's always going to be gaps where your desired audience will fall prey to the manipulation for one hate focus, but not another, like when you run into conservatives that aren't actually racist, but hate anyone in the LGBTQ+ umbrella because of religion, or sheer stupidity.

So, when gays weren't a useful target for hate any more because enough people knew gay people, and there were enough gay people of prominence to make it harder, why not switch to the next best thing? Trans people!

See, we had a major shift in awareness of trans issues back in the late nineties and early naughties. That's was followed by a large shift in trans people now having a serious chance at transitioning as medicine advanced, funding shifted, and there was just enough support that more people could transition and not be alone.

This meant that the assholes pushing their agenda to gain and maintain both wealth and power had a gift given to them. A new label to attack, using the exact same rhetoric they'd been using against gay people. "It's unnatural", "but what about the children?", along with the ability to use lingering misogyny via to attack trans women in specific since they are now women, but used to be men (in the rhetoric), so they must be groomers sneaking into bathrooms.

It's the exact same bullshit over again.

People have forgotten that the same methodology has been in place every time people in power needed to scare the populace enough to achieve a goal. Remember reefer madness? Before my time, but the entire thing was built in order to continue the oppression of black people, to keep them firmly under the boot.

Go back further, and it was the Irish, the Chinese, the Italians, whatever group was "other" at the time.

But the modern version is so directly a rehash of the anti gay rhetoric that's not even fifty years in the past that I'm amazed it isn't glaringly obvious even to the people that have jumped on the bandwagon of both.

I've said it before, but people are stupid. They're easy to manipulate, easy to fool, and that's the majority. Even the ones that aren't easy to manipulate can still fall prey to it if they aren't paying attention. People are also lazy, and have little long term thinking ability, or attention spans. That's why we got zero lasting changes after George Floyd was murdered. Anyone that's made it this far, think for a second. How long did it take you to remember that name and what it means? Now, ask yourself how many people didn't remember at all.

That's why trans hate is working. People suck. The vast majority are easy to control, and will believe anything fed to them with the right language behind it. It just so happens that while all of the distractions being used to build up the hate also created a smoke screen to hide gerrymandering, which ends up with more and more control over what language is being used everywhere.

So, here we are with a manufactured, strawman enemy being propped up as the target and then painted with the word "trans". None of the bullshit used to build up the hate is true, it isn't accurate, and most of the people behind the hate actually know it's bullshit, but they aren't allowed to hate the blacks and the gays out loud any more. They can't just scream the n word or call people faggots at whim the way they used to.

So, now they've got trans people to hate. And they want that hate because it means they don't have to look at themselves, their own lives and choices. They don't have to stop and think that maybe everything they've built their identity around is empty, so they scream about "wokeness" and "transgenderism" as code words.

There's no serious, legitimate arguments against trans people being allowed to have the full protection of the law, to have full medical access, to have whatever gender they want on their driver's license. There's just the bullshit excuses to have someone to hate. There's not even a good argument about bathrooms, they're all built on bullshit too, and that's the one that's the low hanging fruit because it seems reasonable to people that aren't buying all the bullshit immediately, but aren't quite bright enough to think it through all the way on their own. Which, again, that's the majority, stupid people too drowned in lies and manipulation to bother thinking.

So, Don, if you've gotten this far, I know I went wide of what you asked, but it really is all related. It all comes down to the same thing in different faces over time.

For anyone else, I know this got a little ranty in parts. I know it is long enough to look a little crazed. IDGAF. This shit is patently obvious, it's not even a secret. The people that have been running the right wing of things for my entire lifetime and before have outright and publicly talked about it. One part of it, the "southern strategy" they brag about. It's infuriating, so I get ranty.

[-] Carnelian@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Please continue with your rants then, that was the most clear and concise breakdown of events I’ve ever seen. Thank you for writing it up

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[-] paddirn@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago

They’re an easy minority to scapegoat. In the US they make up between 0.5% and 1.6% of the population. A sizable portion of straight people associate being transgender as something sick and weird and a sexual deviancy, so it’s easy to target them and to try to associate them with actual objectively bad things (ie pedophilia). They’re just people trying to find their place in the world and live their lives, same as most of us.

[-] JustZ@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago

A sizable portion of straight people associate being transgender as something sick and weird and a sexual deviancy, so it’s easy to target them and to try to associate them with actual objectively bad things (ie pedophilia).

I find that disgusting and totally incorrect, but actually I would be fine if that's what they thought and that's where they stopped.

But they want to pass laws telling other people how they have to behave, and how they have to do things.

The most unamerican and unpatriotic, anti-freedom thing that I can possibly think of, is people passing laws to define something as intimate and personal as gender identity and family planning. Like can't they just fuck off and let people be how they want?

It's extremely weird. And these fucking bigots think because they won the election they're not weird anymore, but most of the country did not vote. These people are still weird as fuck. If everyone voted they would get crushed and laughed out of town.

[-] paddirn@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

They got like 1–2% more votes than Harris got and only got ~1 million votes over 2020. Had Harris gotten the same number of votes as Biden she would’ve won. It’s not that the country went more Conservative, it’s that Democrat voters are unreliable and failed to come out. There’s hardly a “mandate” to speak of, these people are still weird as shit, nothing changed.

[-] PlainSimpleGarak@lemmings.world 0 points 1 month ago

Why would you ask this question on Lemmy. You will get few, if any, legitimate answers. This platform is an echo chamber.

[-] RustyEarthfire@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Yeah, such a shameful lack of bigots' POV.

[-] antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 month ago

Religious people control their kids through the village support system of their church. Some kids are learning things at public school which are not in line with those beliefs. This is scary for parents. Parents don’t want to lose their children, and can’t imagine loving them as somebody else. Case in point Elon And his trans daughter Vivian.

I’m quite liberal and atheist, but the prospect of a transitioning child is troubling to me. While I’d have no problem supporting a gay child, I feel very strongly about body acceptance, and I reject body dysmorphia. Transitioning to another gender is to me, not too different from a woman who wants augmentation surgeries or a man who is taking steroids. That said I could care less what anybody else does. I think cosmetic surgery and steroids should be legal. I don’t think the government needs to be involved. It’s a decision to discuss with a child, doctor, and parent.

I guess what I’m saying is, I can empathize with the transphobia of conservatives. Where we differ is in how we deal with that fear. They want the government to make society conform to their beliefs. I think it’s up to the individual parent to grow the love in their heart to accept and love whatever their child decides to be.

[-] antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I feel the need to add to my feelings on this, because I don’t like admitting that I am somewhat transphobic. I strongly believe in bodily autonomy and I think 18 is too old to grant it. For tattoos, piercings, health decisions and anything else relating to oneself, I think autonomy should be granted as soon as it is claimed. In some cases of teenage pregnancy, the conception itself is a declaration of autonomy, unless the parents gave permission, which would be weird. I’m not sure a minimum age can be set. I think teenagers should be able to legally divorce (reverse adoption?) their own parents too. I recognize that this is also an extreme view that would frighten most parents. It frightens me too. But I kinda feel like picking out specific issues like trans rights or abortion is ignoring an overarching issue of parental/societal control. Not too long ago it was fairly common for husbands to view their wives as property. Many if not most parents seem to view their children as property. Maybe someday that too will change. It’s not as though 18 is some magical age of self actualization. Some people will be dependent on their parents well past that age if not forever, and some people are ready to face the world alone at 15, maybe younger.

[-] maevyn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 month ago

I just want to say as a trans person, first off, your views are very valid. I think it’s actually great that despite your misgivings you respect the principle of bodily autonomy, which I very much agree with myself. Totally think this is a good take.

I also wanted to give my 2 cents on the experience itself. You liken transition to body modification, and there definitely are parallels. But in my experience, the two are distinct. Like, I have both dysmorphia at times, and dysphoria at others. I’m not 100% happy with my body after transition, but now it’s like, less because I look like a guy and more because I look like a girl but, maybe not with the ideal body I wanted. When that first hit me, my wife told me “welcome to womanhood” and I laughed a little (and cried a little) because it was true, I’d never known a woman who didn’t struggle with her body image.

I also just, can’t really explain how much my mental health has improved. I had terrible anxiety when I entered puberty, and it wasn’t about gender or anything (that I was aware of at the time, anyways). It was almost just like my brain started malfunctioning. I got quieter, I overthought everything, I self medicated with weed and alcohol, became kind of aimless. Then I turned it around, got my career going, got married, worked on myself. I still drank to take the edge off and be able to socialize, but put on a face at parties and figured out how to push through the anxiety. I tried therapy, medication, meditation, you name it, but it never really got too much better, I just got better at working around it.

I had kinda given up on there being an “answer”. I just figured, you know, this is life for me. Not bad, just hard. And then this thing happened, where a lot of stuff I had been pushing down all came up at once. And I transitioned.

I really, really didn’t think it would “solve” things. Like, I thought it felt right, that it would make things better. But I was trying not to get my hopes up. And at first it didn’t, like hormones didn’t really immediately fix everything. It was more subtle. It was like.. like slowly waking up from a long and tiring nightmare. The kind you don’t remember much of, you just keep that vague sense of unease for a while.

It’s been a year and a half. I can go to parties and not drink now, and just, relax. Have fun. Socialize. I can make friends and talk to strangers. I still have anxiety, I still have problems, but like, my brain just works better. I don’t know how else to describe it. I make connections I never did before, understand people and empathize with them more.

I feel happy. Not in a like, “this is new and exciting” kind of way, but a sort of deep contentedness. Peace.

I don’t think this is a silver bullet. It doesn’t solve all your problems, and it sure as hell won’t solve anything for a cis person. It just helps to take a constant burden out of the way. And for me, even if there had been 0 physical changes, I would 100% take estrogen just for the mental effects it has had alone. It’s been the best mental healthcare I have ever received.

[-] vga@sopuli.xyz -1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I'm going to be an apologist for conservatives for a sec, just for the sake of giving out my theory of mind of these people.

I think this all happens mostly due to the stress trans people are inadvertently causing their parents. When your kid comes out of the closet, this will happen to a parent regardless of how liberal-minded they are. Even if you have no problem with the concept, your kid being trans brings about new kinds of threat scenarios you never had to think about before. If you're a sensible, smart and handsome person like I truly fucking am, you can process it in a few years and come out as not being a 100% asshole towards the issue.

But if your reference group is republican church goers, there's a high probability that such a person just simply does not have the mental or social toolset to process it in any sensible way. They will construct a toxic viewpoint for this issue, strengthen it from outside sources and then start to spread that toxicity.

[-] slurpeesoforion@startrek.website 0 points 1 month ago

I think you're close to the root of it. The need for a biological legacy is strong no matter any affiliations. Having "non-conforming" children threatens that legacy.

For the groups that inflate this drive, that's all there is. That's the only purpose. No "we as a species".

For the rest of us it might be a little disappointing at the prospect of no grandchildren. But we know that it's ultimately not our decision. And the same outcome could happen regardless of any "conformity".

[-] vga@sopuli.xyz -1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yeah, I did certainly want to be able to do something that would've made my child not trans, but I couldn't figure any way to do that so there was just nothing to even try. Also in the same vein on several occasions I wondered whether I had caused this by some action or inaction which is just pointless rumination.

Some of the more delusional churchgoers think they can change these things because they think they have a wizard on their side.

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