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submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by TheArstaInventor@lemmy.world to c/fediverse@lemmy.world

As a strong supporter of open-source and community-funded projects like Lemmy, which prioritize serving users over investors, I believe Lemmy has significant potential, and that's why I am here. However, it is clear that its growth is nearing a plateau in its current form. Despite the surge in users following Reddit's API changes, Lemmy continues to primarily attract tech-savvy individuals, politically left-aligned users, and those accustomed to old Reddit. For Lemmy to reach the broader average general audience, meaningful changes are necessary.

The rise of Bluesky demonstrates the importance of ease of use and a user-friendly design. Its polished and familiar interface is a key reason for its growth and appeal as an alternative to platforms like X/Twitter. This same ease of use is what Mastodon lacked, leading to its initial hype fading quickly. The average user is unlikely to adapt to something that feels complicated or unfamiliar, and this challenge also applies to Lemmy.

As someone who started as an average Reddit user and became more tech-savvy over time, I can confidently say that first impressions matter. When users first visit lemmy.world, the default UI is often enough to discourage them from staying. Most will not explore the homepage sidebar to explore, figure out and switch to one of the alternative UIs available, which is unfortunate because a better UI could make a huge difference.

This is why I propose that large servers like lemmy.world adopt Photon UI as the default web interface. Photon is currently the best and most mature alternative UI, offering a visually appealing, modular design that feels familiar to users of new Reddit. It makes excellent use of screen space and provides customization options like compact and cozy views. Unlike some other alternative UIs, Photon is actively maintained and ready for widespread use, although in no way is it perfect, this can also help bring in more contributors to the project development.

While it is important to continue offering other UIs as options, I believe adopting Photon as the default UI could make Lemmy far more appealing to the average Reddit user. First impressions are crucial, and the current default UI has turned off many potential users. If we want Lemmy to succeed as a true Reddit alternative, we need to prioritize user experience and accessibility. Thankfully today, Lemmy still continues to be THE biggest Reddit alternative, while our userbase is still considerably smaller than Reddit, it's the biggest of any alternatives, and Lemmy continues to somewhat be in the spotlight for those seeking alternatives, we can't let growth stagnate, it's high time we make the platform more welcoming and appealing for the average joe.

EDIT: The image I attached is from photon.lemmy.world, which I just realized is using the outdated version of Photon, I have updated the image to the updated current photon version from phtn.app. There are a lot of improvements made.

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[-] thebardingreen@lemmy.starlightkel.xyz 37 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I love the Lemmy UI.

But I'm a gen Xer.

There's some great analysis floating around of how different generations actually interpret UIs (and make decisions about how or whether to engage with them) very differently. So there is no "one size fits all" that will make everybody happy. Change the Lemmy UI to something like Photon and I'd be like... "this is dumb." Making a bunch of very different options is a lot of work. If you want to do it... no one is stopping you. The Lemmy project is opensource and you could go start contributing and making pull requests today. You could go run your own instance and make it look like whatever you want and get the average redditors to join that. I run my own instance. We have a whole two users. It works exactly the way I want it to and federates with exactly who I want it to.

Frankly, I'm not sure Lemmy needs to go out of it's way to appeal to the average redditor in order to have a thriving, healthy community. Sure, there are some things I miss about having a giant user base to engage with, but honestly, I'll trade them for the MUCH MUCH lower toxicity. I don't know that "growing Lemmy" should be our focus. It's not like we're getting paid.

[-] 30p87@feddit.org 4 points 1 month ago

I love the Lemmy UI, and am a Gen Z. There's nothing worse than a UI that's slow, takes more time than necessary to load and is overloaded. I would much rather have bare HTTP forms or just make curl calls than using (new) reddit or Photon.

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[-] superkret@feddit.org 31 points 1 month ago

it is clear that its growth is nearing a plateau in its current form.

Good! Lemmy doesn't need to become big, especially since the less techy masses will likely put loads of load on privately hosted instances without bothering to donate.
The growth could actually kill Lemmy.

I believe adopting Photon as the default UI could make Lemmy far more appealing to the average Reddit user.

Please no!

[-] fxomt@lemm.ee 19 points 1 month ago

Eh, i agree that lemmy shouldn't grow too big (Reddit is an example of why, feels like a circlejerk of bots and reposts), but the userbase feels too small currently. On a lot of communities, The activity is 1-2 posts a week, which makes it feel quite dead. And I especially miss the niche communities that you could join on reddit, for small games or obscure topics.

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[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 10 points 1 month ago

I mean, yes. And I also like the oldschool interface, it does have its iffy corners but the overall layout and UX is great.

That said, there's a difference between "avoid (success at all costs)" and "(avoid success) at all cost". We should be making lemmy better for the purpose of making lemmy better, we shouldn't be changing it just to please random people so they come over.

[-] Blaze@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago

We're at 44k monthly active users https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/dailystats

100k or 200k wouldn't kill the platform

[-] muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee 3 points 1 month ago

I disagree. We want all people and all perspectives. Federarion needs to become the default to put enough pressure on the big tech companies to get all people on a common protocal. It is the ideal that web3.0 promised to be.

Also we need to monitise lemmy so that running an instance is profitable enough to support the usrload. I think we can do this via lemmy gold make it monero based where a golded post/comment get split between instance/community/post/comment. Align profit incentives with making federated media better for everyone.

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[-] fxomt@lemm.ee 26 points 1 month ago

As much as i love photon, i don't think it should be the default. The default lemmy ui is pretty slick and lightweight, even if it is kind of bad. Photon can be sluggish, and overwhelming for some.

I think they should just improve the default UI (which they are currently), and leave it for the user to decide.

[-] TheArstaInventor@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

People who prefer old Reddit often say the same thing about new Reddit. While old Reddit, or in this case a barebones, simpler UI, is lightweight and "slick," the reality is that if we want Lemmy to grow beyond its current base of tech-savvy users, we need to consider a different perspective, one that focuses on the needs and expectations of the average user.

For example, despite old Reddit being lighter and having its loyal supporters, 80 to 90 percent of users still prefer new Reddit. As someone who used to moderate on Reddit, I can confirm that the majority of traffic came from new Reddit, even though old Reddit was still available. This highlights how a more modern and user-friendly interface is often what appeals to the majority.

From my personal experience as someone who primarily used new Reddit, Photon feels far more intuitive and familiar compared to the default Lemmy UI. That said, I am not claiming Photon is perfect. However, considering that most alternative UIs are currently niche and their development relies heavily on a small group of contributors, Photon stands out as a mature and robust option.

While it is encouraging to see Lemmy’s developers working on improving the default UI, the project is still in its early stages and may or may not succeed. Why start from scratch or bet on something that is just beginning development when we already have a well-developed alternative like Photon? By adopting Photon as the default, we can take advantage of an existing solution that is in good shape, has significant potential, and can continue to improve with more widespread adoption and contributions.

This approach would ensure that Lemmy becomes more accessible and appealing to the average user, while still leaving room for users to choose other UIs if they prefer. First impressions matter, and adopting a polished and familiar UI could make all the difference in attracting and retaining new users.

BTW those who want to can still change to alternative UIs, nothing will stop them from doing so.

[-] fxomt@lemm.ee 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I also prefer the new (new-old, the current one sucks) reddit UI and love photon, and i don't think it's too far fetched of an idea to want it as the default UI. I think it should be left to instances, so for example, lemmy.world could use photon for the default, yet lemmy.ml could use the default lemmy UI.

I'm still a little concerned over first impressions of a new lemmy user, when they try to use lemmy.world on a weak device, and realize it is slow, or laggy, and could sour their opinion on lemmy as a whole. A non tech savvy user might not completely understand the idea of lemmy, or clients, or even instances. They'd just blindly choose lemmy.world and assume that's the "main" instance. (I also could just be underestimating the average user's intelligence, lol.)

That's why i brought up performance as a main point to why we should keep the current lemmy UI. Maybe if photon is optimized and is more stable, i could completely agree that it should be the default.

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[-] squirrel@discuss.tchncs.de 18 points 1 month ago

I know I'm tech-savvy, but I actually enjoy the fact that Lemmy (and the Fediverse) doesn't hand everything to me easily on a plate. The hunt for new interesting communities, my long well curated block list, setting up Lemmy apps exactly to my preferences is part of the fun.

If someone handed me a fully configured Voyager app on day one, I wouldn't have had all the exciting experiences trying a bunch of apps to find the best one for me, learning how to block instances and communities, learning how to correctly link to communities and users, finding new ways to discover communities.

All this stuff is part of why I come back here everyday. A ready out-of-the-box solution is kinda boring.

[-] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 month ago

A lot of the comments including yours sound gatekeep-y to me but I have to say I kind of feel the same way.

Everyone who has come here and stuck around found their way through the jank and is joining an exclusive club of high-quality discussion. Like Linux, once you can get past the basics, you can customize your experience nearly limitlessly, but it takes effort, trial and error to get to something you like.

[-] idiomaddict@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

I’m not at all tech savvy[1], but it’s not that hard, honestly.

[1] context: I know that when a steam game doesn’t work, sometimes I need to reinstall a driver, but I never remember how or where to do that. I use an iPhone from 2016, and I unlock it with my fingerprint.

[-] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee 15 points 1 month ago

I just use the Voyager app, which has a great UI, with no need to visit the website at all.

[-] TheArstaInventor@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

I should mention this is mainly for desktop users :), but even for mobile users, people usually check the website first before downloading apps.

[-] RmDebArc_5@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)
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[-] MudMan@fedia.io 11 points 1 month ago

I'm on Fedia. It's pretty solid, UI-wise. I actually find it more usable than Reddit and its terrible way of trimming down threads by default.

What I've seen of Lemmy does seem a bit messier to read, though.

[-] johntash@eviltoast.org 10 points 1 month ago

I might have missed it, but why is it clear that lemmy is reaching a plateau of users?

[-] Shatur@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 month ago

The rise of Bluesky demonstrates the importance of ease of use and a user-friendly design. Its polished and familiar interface is a key reason for its growth and appeal as an alternative to platforms like X/Twitter.

I think many people use Bluesky instead of Mastodon because of its UX, not its UI. Both looks great (I think Mastodon even nicer!).

I personally use Mastodon, but I've seen people complain about their experience with it.

[-] Badeendje@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

The ootb experience is what matters to most. As people seem to just want it to work. I personally love the bare bones.. but most users don't really customize much or want to conduct a whole study on alternative apps or settings. I would be fine with polished and basic settings complemented with an advanced settings menu and other apps.

[-] Blaze@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago

most users don’t really customize much or want to conduct a whole study on alternative apps or settings.

Usually I just recommend

They can figure the rest themselves later, but that's usually a good way to set people up

[-] astro_ray@piefed.social 7 points 1 month ago

Lemdro.id uses Photon as it's default UI, but it's incredibly slow and sometimes it doesn't even load properly. As much as I love the polish, I wouldn't recommend it as default UI. Using photon as an alternative UI is much better option.

[-] Metz@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Why photon? alexandrite is insanely much better imho: https://a.lemmy.world

[-] souperk@reddthat.com 6 points 1 month ago

One thing to consider here is that photon as an spa does not offer great support search engines. Which can help drive organic traffic to lemmy. While, some may see it as a net benefit, from your point of view it's an great disadvantage.

[-] Cephalotrocity@biglemmowski.win 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The Lemmy UI is easy enough to use IMO. Where the problems show up are:

  • Unreliable linking to other comments and posts. It is annoying to no end to receive a link to someone's comment and be unceremoniously ripped out of your home server and put onto the federated one no longer logged in etc... This behaviour should somehow be prevented

  • a quick reference to the text commands easily found somewhere (ie: sidebar)

  • I'd prefer more theme and colour options

  • Fix the text interface so it respects carriage return entries properly. If I want to start a new line directly under the current one (edit: AFI knew after 4+ months of use) there is

no way

to do

it.

Make it so a single carriage return is acknowledged and correctly starts a new line right underneath, or automatically forces a blank line between. This needing double entry is unintuitive and wrecks many new user's first hundred post's appearance.

Finally, the premise: Lemmy.world should be more welcoming is itself undesirable. That instance is already taking up an inordinate number of users so IMO every other instance (except the awful ones, we all know who they are) should be using a better UI, not L.W

[-] Blaze@feddit.org 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

no way

to do

it.

your can use
two space at the end of the line
to achieve this

For the links, it's being worked on, should be part of 0.20: https://lemmy.ml/post/23245384

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[-] Xylight@lemm.ee 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Hi everyone, I'm the dev. Reading all these comments really hurts when it's something you've poured your heart and soul into for over a year.

There's reasons I do everything I do in this UI, and my primary goal is to make Lemmy accessible for everyone.

This is the "cozy" view as well, but there's a "compact" view for people like me who enjoy more information density. Again, my end goal is to make Lemmy accessible. I don't do this for the sidebars for convoluted reasons I won't get into.

I'm not the one trying to advertise it, and I've never really tried to because of the fear of disapproval. I think I should advertise it myself now because then I can showcase the best parts and not get misunderstood. This screenshot uses the "list" view, imo the worst one, with some cursed chrome scrollbars.

Now that I see that the majority of users believe this sucks, I'm not sure if my mission is worth it or if I'm even doing it right.

I'm probably being too sensitive to criticism which I should expect from any project. But this project is the only one I used to feel proud of, then people chiming in claiming it's the ugliest thing they've seen. I don't know im blind to design which is the only thing I considered myself "good" at in terms of web dev.

[-] dizzy@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago

Don’t be disheartened. You did a great job with your version.

People complain about Apple and Google UIs that they spend hundreds of millions on creating and user-testing. There’s no one-fits-all in UI or UX.

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[-] Blaze@feddit.org 2 points 1 month ago

Hello @Xylight@lemm.ee ,

First of all, really sorry that you took it that way. A few comments were indeed harsh, and I guess people were just focused on the interface and forgot that there's actually someone behind it.

I personally value Photon a lot, it definitely helps a lot of people who prefer this type of interfaces.

I think I should advertise it myself now because then I can showcase the best parts and not get misunderstood.

I think you don't even need to advertise it that much. We have Photon as an alternative frontend on one of the instances I follow, and people regularly bug the admin to update it because they like it!

The negativity this post received is probably because interfaces are a very personal matter, and trying to uniformize the default interface is always going to lead to heated discussions

Take care, you are doing an amazing job.

FYI @TheArstaInventor@lemmy.world

[-] TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Don't take it that way. I find the default UI horrible and primarily use Lemmy on Voyager on my phone because of it. Finding this thread let me find that I can comfortably use Lemmy on desktop too! 🥳

I didn't join Lemmy for a while because I liked the "new" reddit UI better and found Lemmy too different to use easily. I tried all the different options and I didn't like them. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED ON DESKTOP!

And remember survivorship bias. The ones that can put up with the Lemmy UI, or switch to something they like better, are (for the most part) the only ones here now giving feedback.

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[-] chillinit@lemmynsfw.com 5 points 1 month ago

For Lemmy to reach the broader average general audience

Fucking capitalists will enshitify this also.

[-] TheArstaInventor@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

How will they? A new UI adaptation won't change the fact that Lemmy is community-run, federated/decentralized and not owned by a corporation?

[-] chillinit@lemmynsfw.com 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

reach the broader average general audience

[-] neatchee@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

That's quite a novel way of saying "I don't know what enshitification is actually about, nor do I understand why broad adoption is critical for protecting the long-term existence of community maintained software". Kudos on your creativity!

Seriously though, "keeping good things small for the sake of keeping them free of interference by capitalist interests" is misguided. Quite the contrary, leaving a large audience on the table is a surefire way to guarantee that an opportunistic capitalist will capture that market and drive community maintained options into obscurity.

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[-] nesc@lemmy.cafe 4 points 1 month ago

Mastodon is easy to use, it had no chance to become neo-twitter for other reasons.

Can you accept organic growth and not being the bestest best with three billions people?

[-] Zoldyck@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

I mostly agree. Maybe a nice idea to make it opt-in by default, with the option to switch back to the 'old' UI

[-] Schal330@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Perhaps a modal the first time someone visits that shows the different UI options and directions on where to switch

[-] Blaze@feddit.org 4 points 1 month ago

Photon is currently the best and most mature alternative UI, offering a visually appealing, modular design that feels familiar to users of new Reddit.

What about Tesseract?

https://dubvee.org/

This is why I propose that large servers like lemmy.world adopt Photon UI as the default web interface.

That's something to be discussed per server. You should maybe ask LW staff to open a poll on their announcements community

[-] kinther@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

I personally really dislike new reddit and the Photon theme. I'd say no to any change to my main instance.

[-] avieshek@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

I would actually prefer this: sacred.computer

[-] TachyonTele@lemm.ee 1 points 1 month ago
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[-] AnonomousWolf@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I'm new to Lemmy and quite tech savvy.

I'd like to get more people I know to join, but the standard UI really wasn't nice. Thanks for showing me Photon, I like it so much more!!

I'm using Sync on mobile, I miss the Upvote & Downvote bar, any idea how to get it back?

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this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2024
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