[Message from blahaj.zone] Neopronouns are not trolling (lemmy.blahaj.zone)

submitted 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) by qaz@lemmy.blahaj.zone to c/196@lemmy.blahaj.zone

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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/20091173

I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.

So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.

I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.

This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

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[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 33 points 2 weeks ago

[removed by mod]

[-] julianh@lemm.ee 29 points 2 weeks ago

A lot of people say the same things about trans folks in terms of gay rights. Some people might be fucking around, but drawing a line in the sand like that is going to inevitably invalidate people with legitimate identities. And if you really don't want to use them, it's super easy to just ignore. Idk if I've ever even had to refer to someone with third person pronouns on Lemmy.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 25 points 2 weeks ago

Some people might be fucking around, but drawing a line in the sand like that is going to inevitably invalidate people with legitimate identities.

All concepts are just lines in the sand, even down into STEM. Lines have to be drawn somewhere. The question is whether the new line drawn or erased disrupts other lines, who it benefits, and what it's worth. I happen to have a very low opinion of the idea that gender is entirely arbitrary and without any line in the sand, and that "I identify as an attack helicopter" is not a conservative defamation of the trans and NB community, but a legitimate point of view.

And if you really don’t want to use them, it’s super easy to just ignore.

The commenter was removed and banned for disagreeing with the concept that dragonfucker is a gender. On the meta comm for the instance. Under a post by the main admin.

Idk if I’ve ever even had to refer to someone with third person pronouns on Lemmy.

Dragonfucker has been banned from a number of communities for insisting on just that.

[-] Jumuta@sh.itjust.works 8 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

the human brain is good enough of a prediction machine to not need a clean linear line in the sand imo, I'd like to believe that our judgement ability is closer to a support vector machine than a simple one dimensional 'greater than' statement

e.g. you'd know if someone was actually identifying as an attack helicopter as opposed to trolling by saying so, right? maybe it's just a phase for them but people have phases (imo) because they need to probe and gather first hand experience to learn

[-] klemptor@startrek.website 25 points 2 weeks ago

you'd know if someone was actually identifying as an attack helicopter as opposed to trolling by saying so, right?

IRL maybe, but the issue here is that (at least from what I've observed) dragonfucker can be pretty confrontational, as if seeking a fight. It's obnoxious behavior and generally I roll my eyes and move along. I do think identifying as a "dragonfucker" for gender is hard to take as anything other than a long-running troll job, particularly because 1) dragons aren't real and even if they were, 2) "dragonfucker" is surely a hobby or job description, not a gender. Most reasonable people would find this ludicrous at first glance, and have their opinion confirmed by this user's strident tone and eagerness to take offense. It seems really unlikely that this person sincerely identifies as a dragonfucker (and honestly I can't even believe we're having this debate).

I really try to be balanced and understanding, but this user in particular seems to seek negative attention. Which is fine I guess, but I feel bad for anyone who falls into that trap.

[-] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 2 weeks ago

Exactly, well said. And all it does is make a mockery of people experiencing real issues with gender uncertainty/fluidity.

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[-] MBM@lemmings.world 15 points 2 weeks ago

That might've gone over better if it didn't read like an angry rant against "idiots"/"adult children"/"spoiled little shits"

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 18 points 2 weeks ago

If it was banned for incivility, that would have been one thing. But it was banned for 'gatekeeping'. Writing on the wall, and all that jazz.

[-] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 10 points 2 weeks ago

You don't have to refer to them at all, just block obvious troll accounts. It's not like you're going to shame them into not being a troll.

[-] shapesandstuff@feddit.org 7 points 2 weeks ago

Seems mostly ok to kick someone for being rude and directly offending a specific person in their posts, regardless of the opinion voiced.

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[-] Jumuta@sh.itjust.works 26 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

i don't mind what people call themselves and I'll use it to refer to them if I notice it, but they shouldn't expect their pronoun to be understood if it's something obscure

[-] pack_of_racoons@sh.itjust.works 19 points 2 weeks ago

Is it safe to asume that this is why the mods have

...been planning on moving 196 to lemmy.world ASAP…

per https://lemmy.world/comment/14170082

[-] yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 2 weeks ago

Eh, I don't see that as a good idea... also there's already a 196 in lemmy.ml

[-] pack_of_racoons@sh.itjust.works 12 points 2 weeks ago

I don't like the idea either. If true, it seems like the mods/community are upset they can't feed trolls, or bully people who aren't the "right" type of queer.

[-] yuri@pawb.social 5 points 1 week ago

i have .world straight up blocked. when the man or bear thing happened EVERY shitty post/poster came from there. and watching pugjesus throw their little shitfit has only cemented that decision.

hilariously i’ve had way better interactions with .ml users, so i guess if the migration does happen i’ll just hang out there. i’d much rather dodge politics than thinly-veiled-to-outright misogyny and casual transphobia lmao

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[-] Deestan@lemmy.world 18 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

When talking about someone, is using the commonly accepted neutral "they" allowed, or is it considered non-tolerable misgendering?

[-] qaz@lemmy.world 20 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

It's fine by me, but I'm not sure how other moderators (or admins) feel about it

[-] Deestan@lemmy.world 34 points 2 weeks ago

Not personally affected, but I saw someone instantly permabanned with reason "misgendering" for a comment talking about "drag"'s behavior but using "they".

Not warned. Not comment deleted with "please use pronoun at all times". Just bam.

If the general stance is that reaction can be "up to the admin", that's a bit... minefield-y.

[-] qaz@lemmy.world 19 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

If the general stance is that reaction can be “up to the admin”, that’s a bit… minefield-y.

I understand that this might seem problematic. We (the mods of 196) are only partially in control of what is removed and who is banned, due it being hosted on blahaj.zone.

[-] Deestan@lemmy.world 11 points 2 weeks ago

All good, thanks for explaining. :)

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[-] missingno@fedia.io 24 points 2 weeks ago

It's a useful feature of language for 'they' to be a valid default you should always be able to fall back on.

I don't even know who any of you are on Lemmy, and I don't care to. I'm rarely ever even paying attention to your names to begin with.

[-] klemptor@startrek.website 22 points 2 weeks ago

This is a big part of it, to be honest. Dragonfucker eagerly takes offense when people don't use the "drag" pronoun, but most of the time users aren't even looking at handles, and just defaulting to "they" as a general-use pronoun.

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[-] CreatingMachines@fedia.io 16 points 2 weeks ago

Wow...looking at these comments, i realise I still have a lot to think about regarding my exact stance on all this...the fact that I have have zero irl exp in this is not helping...

[-] MareOfNights@discuss.tchncs.de 20 points 2 weeks ago

Because nobody IRL uses neo-pronouns XD

[-] Beegzoidberg@beehaw.org 19 points 2 weeks ago

Nope, never, except for all the times they do:

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/research-briefs/pronouns-usage-among-lgbtq-youth/

Even if you think it's a weird thing to do you could just choose not to engage, which is advice written in the post you commented on.

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[-] seliaste@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 2 weeks ago

I know some who do, quite a lot actually because the neutral french pronoun is a neopronoun

[-] herinaceus@sh.itjust.works 14 points 2 weeks ago

I did not realize that typing exclusively in third-person, and pushing something that is obviously kink-related onto internet strangers was umm... not trolling?

I feel like the troll that does this gives people who fantasize about dragons a bad name, not to mention people who use neopronouns, for various non-trolling reasons, that usually hold some kind of personal meaning. Expression is complicated, but holy goddamn bollucks, third-person shitposting to try to bait people who didn't read a bio into "misgendering" bans is asinine and takes validity from people who could use it. I don't see how any mods have gone along with this "muh third-person antagonistic ranting means victimhood" shit.

Whatever tho, I guess every individual user is supposed to independently block an asshat who tells people to commit suicide, because they are so very super-special.... I hope this place doesn't get tossed into dot world over this, ugh.

Tap for spoiler

I'm going to go consume alcohol and definitely ~~not~~ look at cute/sexy kobalds to cope. Feel free to DM me for info on the nature of creatures outside the scope of waking reality, if you are brave enough.

[-] ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 points 2 weeks ago

Whatever tho, I guess every individual user is supposed to independently block an asshat who tells people to commit suicide,

The message clearly and categorically states the rules still apply, and that behaviour is what gets actioned. Literally nothing about the post says that someone using neopronouns is otherwise exempt from the rules. If someone is telling someone to kill themselves, report it or DM it to a community mod.

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[-] Deestan@lemmy.world 12 points 2 weeks ago

Opinions aside, thanks for clarifying this.

[-] block_place1232@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 2 weeks ago

Most of the time I don't ask people their pronouns in public I just tend to use "they/them" until I overhear someone saying their actual pronouns then'll use them.

As for here on Lemmy I just look at their pronouns in the bio or just don't use pronouns at all in my comments.

I respect everyone and if I make a mistake that's okay and I'll refer to them with the correct pronouns.

[-] qaz@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago

I'm seeing a lot of downvotes on this post, if you feel you disagree, feel free to send me a DM.

[-] lepinkainen@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago

Thank fuck my native language doesn’t have gendered pronouns. I just use they for everything, much simpler that way.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago

Are 'nounself' style neopronouns included here?

[-] qaz@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 2 weeks ago

Like drag?

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 10 points 2 weeks ago

Apparently they are included, by the actions of the admins in the linked thread.

[-] homicidalrobot@lemm.ee 23 points 2 weeks ago

NP don't bother me at all, but that user intentionally stirs the shit in myriad other ways. Short account lifetime, TONS of replies, intentionally controversial posts, feels the need to comment on every single post that gets traction. I think "we should be nice to AI because it might be alive" has been my least favorite arc so far, close between that and declaring all of lemmy transphobic (in a BZ post no less). Block drag and move on. This post was proof enough for me personally it was a great choice.

[-] qaz@lemmy.world 19 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Aside from all the drama, they also encouraged users to commit suicide (which is why they were banned from trans on blahaj) and used sock puppet accounts. They were banned from 196 2 days ago.