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That's a good litmus test. If asking/paying artists to train your AI destroys your business model, maybe you're the arsehole. ;)
Not only that, but their business model doesn't hold up if they were required to provide their model weights for free because the material that went into it was "free".
There's also an argument that if the business was that reliant on free things to start with, then it shouldn't be a business.
No-one would bat their eyes if the CEO of a real estate company was sobbing that it's the end of the rental market, because the company is no longer allowed to get houses for free.
Businesses relying on free things. Logging, mining, ranching, and oil come to mind. Extracting free resources of the land belonging to the public, destroying those public lands and selling those resources back to the public at an exorbitant markup.
I'm fine with this. "We can't succeed without breaking the law" isn't much of an argument.
Do I think the current copyright laws around the world are fine? No, far from it.
But why do they merit an exception to the rules that will make them billions, but the rest of us can be prosecuted in severe and dramatic fashion for much less. Try letting the RIAA know you have a song you've downloaded on your PC that you didn't pay for - tell them it's for "research and training purposes", just like AI uses stuff it didn't pay for - and see what I mean by severe and dramatic.
It should not be one rule for the rich guys to get even richer and the rest of us can eat dirt.
Figure out how to fix the laws in a way that they're fair for everyone, including figuring out a way to compensate the people whose IP you've been stealing.
Until then, deal with the same legal landscape as everyone else. Boo hoo
Training that AI is absolutely fair use.
Selling that AI service that was trained on copyrighted material is absolutely not fair use.
Then let it be over then.
Good, end this AI bullshit, it has little upsides and a metric fuckton of downsides for the common man
To be fair, they’re not wrong. We need to find a legal comprise that satisfies everyone
Why? Nothing they've shat out is good for anything anyway.
If not, AI is dead in the US
Technically, everything you write is copyrighted
Oh no, how horrible... AI is dead in the US? How shall we live? /sarcasm
I’m not an american but losing in that area internationally might be way worse than to fight over training data.
Maybe not paying the full amount of the copyright, but I agree they should compensate the IP holders.
Why does Sam have such a punchable face?
all billionaires do
let's have a tier list of billionaires by face punchability.
my top 3:
#1 Elon Musk
#2 Mark Zuckerberg
#3 Jeff Bezos
Zuckerpunch
I hate zuckerburg as much as anyone, but I find his face surprisingly low on the punchability index. Musk and Bezos at 1 and 2 for me.
Zuck is, however, at the top of the list for lizard person index.
Bezos has such a shit-eating grin. Really makes him infinitely more punchable
oh zuck is such a lizard-person.
Bezos' entire personality gets me fuming; I would want to punch him even if he weren't a billionaire. (Remember that time he talked over William Shatner touchdown?)
Musk honestly looks ok to me personally, I guess the gender-affirming surgeries went well. But the thought of what's going on behind his eyes makes me want to punch him in the face real bad.
Gentlemen, this is democracy manifest!
What is the charge, officer? Eating a meal? A succulent Chinese meal?
I hope generative AI obliterates copyright. I hope that its destruction is so thorough that we either forget it ever existed or we talk about it in disgust as something that only existed in stupider times.
Thing is that copywrite did serve a purpose and was for like 20 years before disney got it extended to the nth degree. The idea was the authors had a chance to make money but were expected to be prolific enough to have more writings by the time 20 years was over. I would like to see with patents that once you get one you have a limited time to go to market. Maybe 10 years and if you product is ever not available for purchase (at a cost equivalent to the average cost accounted for inflation or something) you lose the patent so others can produce it. So like stop making an attachment for a product and now anyone can.
The problem with these systems is that the more they are bureaucratized and legalized, the more publishing houses and attorney's offices will ultimately dictate the flow of lending and revenue. Ideally, copywrite is as straighforward as submitting a copy of your book to the Library of Congress and getting a big "Don't plagiarize this" stamp on it, such that works can't be lifted straight from one author by another. But because there's all sorts of shades of gray - were Dan Brown and JK Rowling ripping off the core conceits of their works, or were religious murder thrillers and YA wizard high school books simply done to death by the time they went mainstream? - a lot of what constitutes plagarism really boils down to whether or not you can afford extensive litigation.
And that's before you get into the industrialization of ghostwriters that end up supporting "prolific" writers like Danielle Steele or Brian Sanderson or R.L. Stein. There's no real legal protection for staff writers, editors, and the like. The closest we've got is the WGA, and that's more exclusive to Hollywood.
So Deepmind is good to train on your models then right?
Oh, so now you're just going to surrender our precious natural resources to the Imperialist Chinese?!
Guys, I think we've got a Wumao over here. Someone get what's left of the FBI to arrest him and show his ass the fucking door.
Whoever brings Aaron Swartz back gets to violate all the copyright laws
Aaron Swartz was 100% opposed to all copyright laws, you remember that yah?
And he also said "child pornography is not necessarily abuse."
In the US, it is illegal to possess or distribute child pornography, apparently because doing so will encourage people to sexually abuse children.
This is absurd logic. Child pornography is not necessarily abuse. Even if it was, preventing the distribution or posession of the evidence won't make the abuse go away. We don't arrest everyone with videotapes of murders, or make it illegal for TV stations to show people being killed.
Wired has an article on how these laws destroy honest people's lives.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130116210225/http://bits.are.notabug.com/
Big yikes from me whenever I see him venerated.
Yes, and he killed himself after the FBI was throwing the book at him for doing exactly what these AI assholes are doing without repercussion
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If giant megacorporations can benefit by ignoring copyright, us mortals should be able to as well.
Until then, you have the public domain to train on. If you don't want AI to talk like the 1920s, you shouldn't have extended copyright and robbed society of a robust public domain.
I'm somewhat ok with AI talking like the 1920s.
"Babe, I'm on the nut. I'm behind the eight ball. I'm one of the hatchetmen on this box job, and it's giving me the heebie-jeebies. These mugs are saying my cut is twenty large. But if we end up squirting metal, this ain't gonna be no three-spot. The tin men are gonna throw me in the big house until the big sleep."
Copyrights should have never been extended longer than 5 years in the first place, either remove draconian copyright laws or outlaw LLM style models using copyrighted material, corpos can't have both.
Bro, what? Some books take more than 5 years to write and you want their authors to only have authorship of it for 5 years? Wtf. I have published books that are a dozen years old and I'm in my mid-30s. This is an insane take.
You don't have to stop selling when a book becomes public domain, publishers and authors sell public domain/commons books frequently, it's just you won't have a monopoly on the contents after the copyright expires.
And how do you think that's going to go when suddenly the creator needs to compete with massive corps?
The reason copyright exists is for the same reason patents do: to protect the little guy.
Just because corporations abuse it doesn't mean we throw it out.
It shouldn't be long, but it sure should be longer than 5 years.
Or maybe 5 years unless it's an individual.
Edit - think logically. You think the corps are winning now with the current state of copyright? They won't NEED to own everything without copyright and patent laws. They'll just be able to make profit off your work without passing any of it to the creator.
The reason copyright exists is for the same reason patents do: to protect the little guy.
If you actually believe this is still true, I've got a bridge to sell ya'.
This hasn't been true since the '70s, at the latest.
So you believe there is no protection for creators at all and removing copyright will help them?
I believe that the protection copyright provides is proportionate to how much you can spend on lawyers. So, no protection for the smallest creators, and little protection for smaller creators against larger corporations.
I support extreme copyright reform, though I doubt it should be completely removed.
Yes, my point is not removing it or reducing it to 5 years.
I'm not saying copyright is doing its job particularly well right now, but reducing its protection is not helping creators.
Copyright IS about protecting creators; we're just still letting corporations run the show.
Copyright IS about protecting creators
No, it isn't. The intent WAS to "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". The reality IS that it harms society, by benefiting only the already powerful.
If that were true, removing copyright entirely would benefit society.
Just because it's been corrupted doesn't mean the intent and purpose isn't still there.
It's absurd that we essentially agree on what needs to happen, but you're stuck on the idea copyright currently has no benefit to anyone but big business.
removing copyright entirely would benefit society
I could be convinced of that.
I think extreme reform would be of more benefit. Copyright as-is is an active harm.
You seem very convinced, considering the downvotes of discussion.
But I can't pirate copyrighted materials to "train" my own real intelligence.
Now you get why we were all told to hate AI. It's a patriot act for copywrite and IP laws. We should be able too. But that isn't where our discussions were steered was it
Man, what if we abolished copyright, but also banned gen AI completely. I think that would be the funniest answer.
Only answer that would make me happy
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this post was submitted on 14 Mar 2025
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