this post was submitted on 10 Jan 2025
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Ye Power Trippin' Bastards
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This is a community in the spirit of "Am I The Asshole" where people can post their own bans from lemmy or reddit or whatever and get some feedback from others whether the ban was justified or not.
Sometimes one just wants to be able to challenge the arguments some mod made and this could be the place for that.
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Isn't it pretty apparent?
If it can feel pain and suffer it shouldn't.
Bacteria do not have the capability to feel suffering. They cannot even feel.
Plants and fungi, despite their increased complexity, do not have the capability to suffer either.
The entire point of the field of ethics and half the field of philosophy is to reduce suffering. Torture is bad because it causes suffering. Killing is bad because it causes suffering. Slavery is bad because it causes suffering. Rape is bad because it causes suffering. Abuse is bad because is causes suffering.
Veganism extends this to animals who are capable of suffering in ways identical to us humans. It also raises important questions: Would it be ethical to treat aliens the same way humanity treats non-humans? What if the aliens are sufficiently stupid, yet still capable of civilization? What if they're smarter but live in solitude? Why exactly is it unethical to kill severely mentally disabled people? Is it just because humans view themselves as superior to every other living being in the universe?
I believe veganism is the objectively moral choice. Still, I'm not vegan for various reasons. But I don't have any qualms with admitting my behavior is objectively wrong.
this is just a lie. one type of ethical study, utilitarianism, is focused on that. many ethical theories don't regard suffering at all, or only as a facet of some other concern.
I'd argue minimizing suffering is basis for all ethics, just that they are achieving it in different ways.
Deontological ethics in a vacuum cause more suffering than utilitarianism. Yet (most) deontological philosophies seek to achieve as much good as possible - and therefore minimizing harm. Kant's categorical imperative is - as a layman - just a formalization of: "Do what is good for you AND others. Don't do what is good for you but bad for others."
And I believe if you ask an ethics board at a why something was not permitted, you will always get the result: "Causes too much harm". This happens despite them being allowed to evaluate based on many different philosophies.
I know very little ethics systems that don't inevitable lead to a society with less suffering if strictly followed by most. Although that might just be because society as is is objectively unethical.
all divine command theories only incidentally reduce harm, and only sometimes. and kant (like all deontologists) is not concerned with outcomes, only the correctness of the action.
So if I understand correctly, a cow can be killed with a gun to the back of the head painlessly and its death prevents hunger for an entire family for the winter so killing it is ethical. Got it.
Again, I'm not vegan nor particularly experienced in vegan arguments but there is clear suffering here:
Edit: Also, I'm not really trying to justify eating animals. TBH I'm ironically more sympathetic to Vegans due to me being a hunter. Frankly I think meat eaters should have to participate in the harvesting of an animal you eat at least once before age of majority. That would at least confer appreciation for some of what is involved.
There are various more - and far better articulated - reasons why killing is bad by the way. Here are some: https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/67606/why-is-murder-wrong
Still, I believe it is hardly possible to reliably kill without involving suffering anywhere.
Though I would consider hunting to be the most ethical variant. It's not even a battle when factory farming exists.
I really don't need reasons why killing is bad :P
TBH all vegan's ethics can be countered with 'check your privilege'.
they're provided, veterinary care, protection from the elements, protection from predators, drinkable water, space to graze, and opportunities to socialize. it's not imprisonment.
Those have nothing to do with imprisonment.
If I locked 10 people in a room and regularly gave them food and water they would still be imprisoned because they couldn't leave.
We know humans suffer from imprisonment and we accept since the mid 20th century that this applies to all humans. It's not a big stretch to assume imprisonment causes suffering for animals as well.
Besides, most cows on the planet have literally nothing of what you described. Except maybe drinkable water and protection from predators.
that's not true.
Most cows on the planet are currently living in factory farms as cattle a few months away from being slaughtered.
Not in factory farms. Preventative antibiotics are not veterinary care.
Limited protection. In summer extreme heat from being stuck inside without air conditioning.
Not inside factory farms.
Not inside factory farms.
so you see they do get protection from the elements
most dairies, even large scale dairies, have pasture. beef cattle are raised 12 to 14 months grazing before going to a feedlot. so where are all these life-long confined cattle?
it seems like you think cattle spend their entire lives in a cafo. they don't.
care to cite this?
Good lord you argue in bad faith. One line replies of basically "no", "doubt it", "citation needed".
Like, come on man. How insufferable.
this isn't evidence, it's a rhetorical complaint about being asked for evidence.
edit: I have been politely asked not to engage in the off topic discussion in this community.
How isn't it evidence?
US 2022:
Haven't found any numbers for other countries.
a full 1/4 of all cattle never spend more than 45 days in a cafo, but even those that do don't necessarily have the conditions you are describing, nor do they live there their entire lives
edit: I have been politely asked not to engage in the off topic discussion in this community.
Where's your citation for this
they are, and that's not all the care they get
edit: I have been politely asked not to engage in the off topic discussion in this community.
What other care do they get?
Is so.
saying it doesn't make it true
It does
it's not imprisonment. it's husbandry
no, we don't. we don't even know if they understand personal mortality
We know several intelligent animals have some sort of concept of death because they are capable of mourning. This doesn't prove they understand personal mortality but it proves that they understand the mortality of others to some extent which is a necessity for understanding your own.
My argument why cows do not want to die is a basic evolutionary one:
Individuals that do not want to die are more likely to reproduce than one's that want to die. It is therefore likely that cow populations today largely do not want to die.
Also, being neutral to the concept of death - or even not knowing about it - implies the absence of a wish to die. If cows do not even understand personal mortality they do not want to die.
you can't prove this
When talking about suffering, I am generally speaking of "pain, as processed by a nervous system".
At least for bacteria, their structures are simple enough to be understood to a large extent by humans. We know chemical reactions cannot suffer and we know proteins cannot suffer. Due to the simple nature of bacteria, it is highly doubtful that they are capable of suffering since all "processing" occurs through varying level of chemicals and minerals.
But I cannot even prove that rocks do not suffer, therefore it is worthless to prove the absence of suffering. Rather, the ability to experience suffering must be proven.
FWIW I don't think you need to define suffering so narrowly to make an argument for veganism or vegetarianism. You can accept that plants do feel suffering and still do it. Because the amount of plants that get killed per kilojoule of energy in beef (feeding the cows) is way more than the amount of plants killed per kilojoule of directly eating plants.
you got there eventually.
This take is a big fucking YIKES from someone who claims to care about living things.
Just saw your comment, I meant it in terms of that the absence of something is often impossible to prove, therefore it is a worthless metric. The metric that should be looked at is whether something is showing indication of suffering.
I couldn't even prove humans are capable of suffering either. You can prove that pain manifests itself through activation of certain brain regions but that doesn't prove the existence of suffering. It's like trying to prove that the color red is accurately visualized in your brain.
I care about people.
Oops, I meant the person you were responding to, sorry buddy. I'm on your side here. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.
The fact that they compare other living things to rocks... just... wow. I edited it to make it more clear who I was referring to. Once again, my bad and I'm sorry friend.
it's not clear that they do care about living things. it seems they're only concern is suffering.
if you define it in a way that specifically precludes other creatures, that seems biased. you don't know how a single-celled organism might be able to suffer. that doesn't mean that they can't.
you can't prove this