ID: photo of Martin Luther King Jr. waving at the crowd during the March on Washington, on it is his quote: "He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low-quality!
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such
That means condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)
6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
Does this include not voting because one is a single issue voter?
Edit: lmao, yall will really say whatever to justify your decision to make things worse.
Depends on the severity of the single issue @plastic_ramses. Was slavery a 'single issue'? is genocide? Are they just 'single issues' like school vouchers and saving the spotted owl?
No they are not. I dont understand why you cant see that. Its not complicated.
Your whole argument is designed to excuse yourself from any critical thought and allow your leaders to shackle you to any outcome they please. And maybe thats all you're good for, frankly.
Absolutely. Non-voters and "protest" voters chose not to oppose a known fascist. Their refusal to strategically use their voice has led to increased suffering of minorities, LGBTQ+, and likely an end to any semblance of US democracy.
Yeah, well, they've done it, 95 million Americans didn't vote. Now what?
Are we gonna point the finger at them, lay the blame at their feet, and feel superior because WE VOTED, while the oligarchs and fascists loot our treasury and put our minority and LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters you seem to care so much about in camps? Or are we gonna go and fight the good fight like the people out in LA yesterday?
Thank you for also making this point. There's a lot of with to do. In-person protests, education and outreach, mutual aid and are some of the necessary avenues. Not everyone is able to march but there are many other ways to contribute to the fight.
Absolutely.
If those 95 million would've voted together for Mike the local crackhead, Mike would've won the popular vote with about 20 million votes to spare... I don't know, seems stupid to me to just go on the Internet to complain and then not use one of the only tools you have in a democracy?
I understand that going out voting is "accepting the system" but that is the only legal way to bring about change. If you don't want to support the system that's fine, work to dismantle it, take the fight to them. But just staying at home, doing nothing and then saying "I told you so" is just dumb.
Not only this but, if those non-voters organized and taken action in the last half-century, they would have been able to move the Overton to the Left, instead of the unending Right-ward crawl that we've been seeing. That could have prevented the likes of Clinton and Thatcher and erosion of workers' rights.
I understand your point, but as you said:
There are people WHO VOTED who are doing this, because it's "not their responsibility" anymore.
There are a lot of people like this, they did the bare minimum and feel like that's enough, I mean at least it's something? Still far from enough, I agree with that.
In these times I often think about the Berthold Brecht poem "Wer Zuhause bleibt"-"Whoever stays at home".
Translation :
Italics added by me
This right here.
Y'all really are unble to take any kind of accountability whatsoever. "It's done so it's not relevant anymore" is a textbook example of what abusers say.
Yes, absolutely. Non-voters are neglectful assholes whose inaction has had devastating impacts for multiple different countries. You are all just typical abusers trying to escape accountability.
Love that you assume I'm a non-voter, when nowhere in my comment implies that. You didn't even read it, or my replies to the OP (who actually made good points btw, unlike you). But sure, whatever helps you feel better right now.
This is such an insulting statement to people who actually go through abusive systems that I can't even fathom why you would write this. No one who is in activism and mutual aid spaces would say this with a straight face.
Voting (and in any other way participating) in an oppressive system (E: and for an oppressive party, either way) is literally the opposite of protesting it.
Welcome to the point lmao
MLK: Moderates might be literally worse than the KKK
Libs: Yeah but have you considered that you're racist if you don't vote for someone actively trying to make your life worse
Without fucking fail.
And all with an overinflated and unearned sense of self righteousness to replace the deep sense of irony, and shame, they should be feeling.
This describes every single one of the non-voters and protest voters I've interacted with perfectly.
Cry harder lib. "I know you are but what am I" 💀 my kindergarten age brother wants his insult back.
Refusing to use one's voice strategically to prevent increased suffering is an example of cooperating with evil.
supporting genocide now for some vague possibility of fighting against genocdie 4 years from now is an example of cooperating with evil.
There is nothing "strategic" about unconditionally voting for the Democratic party.
There is, to those whose strategy is to give themselves a pat on the back for doing the barest of bare minimum and successfully maintaining the status quo, rather than doing anything actually useful to oppose fascism (or the capitalism that will always decay in to it), or in the words of MLK himself those "more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice" - it gives them a dopamine hit and an ego boost so potent they seem able to ride on the smell of their own farts for 4 years at a time while doing fuck all else to change society for the better (for anyone but themselves, that is) because they've already "done their part", and is seemingly all they need to convince themsleves they're the brave hero-saviours of humanity, rather than the enablers of fascism they actually are.
It's precisely why the second cult exists - to provide an illusion of choice (E: and of impact), and make "the left" (I can't even type that without cracking up, but part of the cult is being convinced they are "the left") feel like they're fighting the establishment, when in reality, they're holding it up just as much as the other cult is, some might argue, even more, because they'll turn on those actually opposing fascism long before they'll dare be rude to fascists.
There absolutely is, whether privileged non-voters and anti-electoralists perceive it or not. Enabling fascists to take over literally is making life worse for everyone. Voting for non-fascists and putting in work outside of the general election to try to push the party left is how strategic voting works, or would work if those claiming to care about ending genocide and improving the human condition were actually serious about doing anything but circle-jerking about how morally superior they are for enabling expansion of the genocide in Palestine and the one against LGBTQ+ people in the US that's now kicking off.
You don't even want them!!! You're using an idealized version of them, that does not exist to convince me that anything else is "enabling fascism". They're capitalists!! They don't give a fuck about you if you do not serve their bottom line. Your unconditional vote only serves to legitimize them and prevent any other parties from gaining legitimacy, you cannot singlehandedly win them the election if they are not doing the work to earn the people's vote!!!
You have the privilege of not recognizing that. You belong to a class that still serves their capital interests of nominally appearing progressive but acting fucking incompetent and feckless when they are in a position to do anything to materially improve the lives of the vast majority of americans, somehow convincing the public that our "democracy" is anything other than a sham. You have the privilege of the identity politics, that they drive between us like a wedge and only pretend to care about, that they actively damage by divorcing them from their real material basis, that distract from very real issues which the establishment parties don't even bother pretending to give you a choice on anymore, being your single fucking issue.
The Democrats will not be pushed left, they fucking despise the left and take every opportunity they get to destroy and delegitimize leftist movements. Look at any of their actions this election!! Actually listen to them when they talk!! When the Republicans attack them for being too left, for defending trans people, for defending immigrants, look at how they crumble and fall back instead of defending their positions. Look at how they let the Republicans look like anti-war candidates. It would be so easy to disprove any republican talking point, if the Democrats actually believed in anything other than putting on a show for their donors. They let the Republicans define what the acceptable positions are, and you let them get away with it because of imaginary "moderate" voters that this election should have proved do not exist without a single person defending left wing positions nationally and driving the less engaged voters away from the right.
Who is defending the homeless, the imprisoned, the food insecure, the migrants, the minimum wage workers, the invisible victims of natural disasters, the people at the fucking mercy of the healthcare industry???? Our planet?!?! Not to mention the people our tax dollars are murdering on the other side of the planet!! I could go on!!!! You let your party turn their backs on them for fucking identity politics, because you are privileged enough to avoid coming to terms with the fact we've already lost any sense of electoral democracy on the issues that actually stand to improve the human condition!!! You only care about what personally affects and is visible to you.
The Democrats are not a tool for the left, they are not a weapon against the right, they are the left wing of the very capitalist establishment that got us here in the first place and they are nothing but an obstacle to clear on the way to forming a legitimate populist left wing movement in this country.
You're damn right. But neolib shitheads are still better than literal fascists and cause less harm in a given period of time.
Literally the only reason that we have been seeing regression for half a century is apathy and my fellow leftist fooling themselves into believing that which is not reflected in statistical data, with religious fervor. Refusing to use every tool available and instead going straight to "let's try to force a violent revolution" is both self-sabotage and betrayal of the working class and vulnerable groups. No workers' revolution has any chance without popular support and increasing the harm experienced by the working class and vulnerable groups in hopes of forcing it is using them as involuntary human sacrifices for something that has never been shown to work in recorded human history. Generally, it just leads to increased levels of oppression.
Not the people who chose inaction, that's for sure.
Also, not the people who enabled a fascist closely aligned with the UAE and Saudis, that was quoted before the election "Drill, baby, drill!". And I've not heard a peep about monkeywrenching or other effective direct action since the 90s, which tells me that non-voting environmentalists are talking the talk but not walking the walk.
Who decides (under the US Constitution) where tax dollars get spent? The US Congress. No Leftist change in government fiscal policy is likely to occur without Leftists in government positions. As it is a FPTP system, the only way for Leftists to get into elected office is by taking over an established party by winning down ballot elections (something that the grifting Greens never try for).
You very much could. The Democratic party is a party of and for wealthy neolibs.
Not my party, I'm ideologically an anarcho-syndicalist and no elected party in the history of this country has come close to representing me. They are, however, the only one not openly fascist/theofascist.
Fuck yeah, I'm privileged as fuck. I'm a cis-het white male that was raised in a middle-class family that practiced protestant Christianity and had early exposure to computers before they were a big deal. Sure, I'm fucked in other ways, like really childhood trauma, but the only way that I could have been more privileged in the birth lottery would have been to be born in a higher socioeconomic segment.
The reason, according to the data and statistics, that we have lost any sense of electoral democracy on the issues that actually stand to improve the human condition (I agree that that is, in fact, where we've been for at least a decade) is because of voter apathy and non-voting. In a system where the will of the populace is communicated through voting, not voting is accepting whatever the reliable voters (right-wing authoritarians) decide. It is offering no resistance or effort to defend those who are in precarious socioeconomic situations.
Quite the contrary (and actually something that I have worked with my therapist on coping with as my neuro-spiciness amplifies my perception of and mental load taken by things that are unjust, and I have historically valued others' well-being above my own). I care a lot, which has led to mental health issues and challenges in my life. Those that I care about most and owe my allegiance to are the underprivileged and regular working class people (those who suffer most in social infrastructure collapse and war - the deaths of starvation and preventable disease that are usually invisible to these championing violent revolution).
You're damn right about that to. But, there are more of us than there are of them. All it would have taken was engagement of leftists in the electoral process, taking over the party over time, and forcing it to represent the people. Instead, they have decided to mostly sit out every election in my lifetime, doing nothing to force lasting change in the established order and capitulating the vote again and again to the Right.
Hell, they couldn't even be bothered to show up down ballot for things like banning forced labor in California. How can one claim to want to build a better world while implicitly supporting human slavery and hoping for people to suffer and die the unnecessary deaths caused to non-combatants in every war? Anti-electoralism/accelerationism as a tool for the Left is bunk, it's only ever, by available data, helped the Right.
Jesus christ, I wish I had access to the military grade copium you are on right now.
Hey idk, maybe if half the energy that was spent blaming and shaming voters; into using their only legal collective bargaining power to endorse a party that they don't actually want, that doesn't even pretend to work in their interest or that of broader humanity, that is currently voting away your rights right alongside republicans, and fucking lost the election anyways; was instead spent on building up an actually functioning independent left wing party, movement, or undercurrent; on building up independent aid networks and leftist coalitions; the situation would be different.
Maybe if instead of running defense for genocide and complicity, we showed the people that alternative forms of engagement that are actually rewarding, do exist, and build up enough power to stand up for ourselves and show the left wing of the capitalist class that actual action is necessary if they want to keep up their charade; or to take their place when the people see the charade for what it is; we would have won some concessions and actually improved people's lives instead of the best we can collectively hope for being that they don't get worse.
You are correct. We are not out numbered, we are out organized. Spending your time pushing anti democratic propaganda in promotion of the Democratic party is not going to magically organize the working class or make the Democrats less right wing.
No, but be my guest, go and work with the Democrats and see where that gets you. You're definitely the first leftist ever in history to have thought of using the supposed left wing party as an actual left wing party and definitely aren't going to be spit out and blacklisted by the party, which is completely captured by the capitalist class, as soon as it tastes any hint of legitimate anti-establishment or anti-capitalist sentiment. The powers that be just have zero mechanism of maintaining their dominance over the ruling class, and this is really how the Democratic party just organically formed on its own with zero influence by capital. It's just human nature that the people in power in a democracy where anyone, including leftists, can supposedly wield power, would just stop using that power to materially improve people's lives even in order to get elected! I've never spoken to actual leftists organizers who have successfully accomplished anything or read a fucking book written by one in my life, and I can't possibly see what could go wrong, because my political engagement begins and ends at the ballot box and complaining about how other people use their democratic rights on online forums. /s
If the democrats want to shoot their own party in the foot by all but abandoning populist rhetoric, fucking let them. Use the opportunity of the biggest threat to leftist organization and revolutionary optimism, finally stumbling over their own incompetence and contradictory interests, to build up and defend a party that will actually stand for your rights.
Found the person who didnt use all available options of protest.
You don’t understand I can do more good by withholding my vote and standing outside with my witty sign (for a few hours).
Yes because so much is earned in this country by sitting around and waiting for politicians to do the right thing.