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submitted 1 day ago by nutomic@lemmy.ml to c/lemmy@lemmy.ml

There is a pull request which adds a new setting show_downvotes with these settings:

  • Show (current behaviour)
  • Hide (all downvotes hidden in ui)
  • ShowForOthers (only downvotes on other user's posts are visible)

Importantly the last option would become the new default, which means that users wont be aware that their post or comment was downvoted unless they manually change the setting. This may be good for mental health, but may also make it harder for users to realize that their content is unpopular. What do you think about it?

Here is the pull request

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[-] rimu@piefed.social 5 points 1 day ago

You want to be more welcoming to the people who freak out about downvotes? The people for whom the slightest criticism is a huge problem?

[-] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 day ago

This is a misunderstanding of why downvotes can bother people. I will try to put it in perspective with an analogy: Imagine if in RL, you were trying to talk casually with an acquaintance in public. Suddenly, you hear a "boo, [your name]." The boo explicitly uses your full name, not a shortened name, so for the sake of analogy, you know it was directed at you. However, you have no idea who said it or why. All you know is there was a "boo" targeted at you.

It is just negative noise, divorced from any grounding. Not unlike the psychology of a scary sound in a horror movie, it leaves your imagination to fill in the blanks as to why the noise happened. There can be many explanations for the noise, some of which will have nothing to do with you, personally. But the nature of it is still presented as if it is about you, targeted at you.

In my understanding, a criticism is usually considered to be something specific that you can engage with. For example, if you yelled at the acquaintance and they said "don't yell at me over nothing, we were just talking." That is a criticism and something you could take action based on. You could reflect on whether you were needlessly yelling and if you think you were, you could apologize and try to be more calm in the future. The noise, on the other hand, doesn't tell you anything clear. So, do you really need to know? What purpose is it serving?

The spirit of it I suspect comes in some part from the real life forum inspiration of internet forums, where the idea is you are discussing things publicly and openly in front of an audience, and so you might get cheers or jeers. But in practice, this is not really how the internet works. You don't know who is looking attentively at you and who is not even present. You don't know who is "cheering" or "jeering" at what point in what you said and because you don't have any chance of knowing who it is, you can only guess why. The amount of information a downvote gives is virtually nothing, despite what anyone wants to tell themself about adapting their posts because of it; and you can see this reflected in how people react sometimes when they get heavily downvoted. They can get defensive, but in a sort of flailing way, like they're trying to work out what the hell is going on. Because they haven't actually been told what the problem is supposed to be. All they have is noise, their imagination, and whatever coping mechanisms they have for dealing with the noise. In this sense, downvotes can be more like a cowardly (in that it is usually anonymous) taunt than actual information. This is not to claim the intent is always or even often a taunt - remember, the point here is you know basically nothing from it - but that the nature of its low information is easily experienced as more akin to a taunt, since there is nothing substantive you can do with it.

[-] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 day ago

Also, for further RL comparison, even the best standup comics sometimes lose patience with, and go off on, hecklers. So it's not like this is something exclusive to the virtual world. People don't really like being booed.

[-] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

You're conflating downvotes with criticism. Also if there's no downvotes you're more inclined to comment (and criticize) because you can't lazily downvote

[-] russjr08@bitforged.space 8 points 1 day ago

I think downvotes are criticism/judgment - even if it's more of a silent type (in lieu of actually replying, as you pointed out).

Even from the standpoint of "You should only use downvotes to indicate that a comment/post is off topic for the community" that Reddit originally tried to (naively IMO, you can't enforce it not being a "I disagree" button, but I digress) have is still what I'd consider to be criticism. Mainly because regardless of the vote being cast as that vs a general "I disagree", it's still an indication of disapproval of the commenter.

Criticism of course comes in a lot of forms, and can vary on the "level" of it - I wouldn't say that downvotes are a high level of criticism, but one nonetheless.

That's just my view of it, at least, I can't see how they wouldn't be a form of criticism - you shouldn't use them as a "This breaks the rules" indicator because that should be a report instead of a vote IMO, otherwise it's far less likely to be acted upon/handled.

[-] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 2 points 15 hours ago

I've seen countless good comments downvoted on reddit and .world with no engagement whatsoever just because it didn't fit passing lurkers worldview, but is otherwise factually correct. Forcing you to comment instead of downvote, let's lurkers vote based on the content of the comment (obv this lays a burden on moderation, but is worth the tradeoff as it can foster really good discussions and higher understandong of the topic at hand)

Mainly because regardless of the vote being cast as that vs a general “I disagree”, it’s still an indication of disapproval of the commenter.

Here's the disagreement: one is a disagreement that allows you to vent without challenging yourself, the other is a disagreement where you know what the disagreement is about

[-] russjr08@bitforged.space 2 points 10 hours ago

I pretty much agree, personally I rarely ever downvote a comment/post - to the point where I cannot even recall when my last downvote was, unless I accidentally have done so via a mobile gesture (I try to be cautious about this). If I were at my PC, I'd check my instance's database, but alas.

[The rest here on is more of a "6 o'clock in the morning stream of thoughts from my perspective" thing. My friends know me as being very verbose - last paragraph is where I try to steer back on track]

If I do upvote something, generally it'll be something that I feel is driving forward a discussion in good faith (even if I don't necessarily agree with the content itself) and is respectful of all parties involved.

Though a lack of an upvote from me doesn't indicate disagreement either.

An actual flat-out disagreement from me tends to be more on the rare side of things. Because so many comments are an opinion / viewpoint rather than solid fact. It's one thing to say "No, 2+2 does not equal 5" since that is rooted in fact.

Whereas I have to feel pretty strongly about something to directly challenge an opinion, especially since it super easy to misjudge tone on the Internet/across text and I'm not here to unintentionally start a war over something that doesn't have a right or wrong answer (within reason - but even that itself is something that isn't binary). I try to be cautious about asserting something is wrong unless I'm very sure of it (even if I do often fail at that, given the previous issue of tone being hard to judge across text), and of course in most cases you can't really say another person's opinion is unequivocally wrong.

I don't mind giving a different viewpoint, but again I try to be cautious about it because I don't want to come across as "My viewpoint is ultimately right and yours is wrong" and that is unfortunately how a lot of discussions end up being seen (or I just simply make the human error of just having a far too strong opinion of my own).

I do my best to keep my tone as neutral as I can, though as they say "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." My original comment is a good example of this, because I do agree that downvotes are far too often used in the manner that you stated. I also agree that they're typically a poor way of criticizing someone if they don't include a corresponding reply (if I say something that is factually wrong - or even just poor taste, I usually want to know about it so I don't keep doing so!), my only divergence from the matter was that they are a criticism - just a really bad way of doing so.

[-] comfy@lemmy.ml 2 points 23 hours ago

"Criticism" has multiple meanings, and I believe the user you're replying to is using one of the definitions which means more than just simple disagreement - obviously a downvote is expressing a negative judgement.

I see two issues here:

  • more "dunking"
  • awful takes getting more attention
[-] KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml 1 points 15 hours ago

The other side is:

  • it challenges you to formulate your disagreement
  • if the community holds awful takes they never get exposed to a differing opinion (although moderation can do that too)
  • there's people out there that believe: more upvotes = more true and Formulate their opinions based on that
  • "dunking" and "ratio" only work if the content of the comment/criticism is valid. Otherwise its just showing your ass
[-] gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com -2 points 1 day ago

The people for whom the slightest criticism is a huge problem?

I mean, it's .ml, so of course

[-] m532@lemmygrad.ml -1 points 1 day ago

Why so angry at different people existing? NT scum

this post was submitted on 30 Apr 2025
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