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submitted 3 months ago by PugJesus@lemmy.world to c/noncredibledefense@lemmy.world

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[+] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca -40 points 3 months ago

How about this for a thought

Western countries just negotiate with Russia and everyone agrees that Ukraine doesn't join NATO because doing so destabilizes the entire region.

Instead everyone wants to shoehorn Ukraine into NATO even if it costs us all the risk of nuclear war.

Ukraine can still be protected and defended by western interests in other ways without involving NATO.

The big sticking point here is NATO ..... take it off the negotiating table, then you can see where the Russians are at.

Otherwise, there's a war being fought with a steady stream of people dying because someone wants to join an exclusive club?

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 31 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Western countries just negotiate with Russia and everyone agrees that Ukraine doesn’t join NATO because doing so destabilizes the entire region.

Joining NATO would destabilize the entire region because... it would force Russia to invade Ukraine even harder?

Have you considered why Ukraine wants to join NATO so fucking badly?

The big sticking point here is NATO … take it off the negotiating table, then you can see where the Russians are at.

Invading Ukraine, like they did in 2014, long before NATO membership was a consideration for Ukraine?

The reason why Russia is so staunchly against Ukraine (or any other countries) joining NATO is because it makes it that much harder to start a landgrab war.

Otherwise, there’s a war being fought with a steady stream of people dying because someone wants to join an exclusive club?

There's a war being fought with a steady stream of people dying because Russia invaded with the intent to murder Ukrainians and exterminate Ukraine as an independent nation.

Ukraine wanting to join the "Don't invade me" club is hardly fucking surprising in light of that.

[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 21 points 3 months ago

Ukraine wasn't going to join NATO before the war, even after losing the Crimean peninsula.

Ukraine needs security guarantees because they have been invaded twice in a generation. What non-NATO guarantee is going to be acceptable to Ukraine?

[-] freebee@sh.itjust.works 8 points 3 months ago

That's the biggest fuck up off it all. Just holding Crimea was enough for it to be impossible for Ukraine to join NATO, as there may be no disputed territories and they would have never given it up formally.

Putin should've backed out and regrouped a lot better and more carefully after his full scale invasion failed miserably. It's been a nonsense keep going out of principle war for years now and the biggest loser is Russia (it's hard to even calculate the impact of a lost generation of young men + loss of influence world wide because of how crappy weapons systems turn out to be in real war instead of demonstrations.

Meanwhile there's an enormous diaspora of Ukrainians growing in many western European countries now and they became de facto part of the club a lot stronger and faster than anyone could have ever imagined before 2022.

[-] Tattorack@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago

Ukraine wants to join NATO specifically to prevent Russia from invading again. What do you not get about that?

[-] nyctre@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago

Ukraine can be protected without NATO? Like that deal they made where they gave up the nuclear missiles in exchange for security guarantees? Yeah, nice try. Once again you're defending putin's imperialism with weak excuses, what a surprise.