807
on the male loneliness epidemic
(lemmy.blahaj.zone)
Show transcript
Screenshot of a Tumblr post by nongunktional:
when i first heard about the male loneliness epidemic i was like oh yeah close camaraderie and bonding between men is often discouraged in favor of competition or, if not discouraged, at least filtered through a lens of individualism that precludes deep connections. and then i learned what people meant by it (men arent getting laid) to which i say skill issue
to all the men out there not getting laid: try less hard to get laid and try more hard to be an enjoyable and relaxing presence
Pro choice, sympathetic to womens issues, good cook, able to converse about many topics, platonic female friends, hobbies, good hygiene, >6ft tall, healthy weight, reasonably attractive, good degree and then job.
That is/was me and I'm happily married, but it took 7 years of putting a lot of effort into dating before I met her, and I was not picky about who I dated.
The idea that men can easily find a partner by meeting a few basic requirements is divisive tribalist nonsense.
It’s not that they can easily find a partner if they meet a few requirements it’s that lacking those requirements makes dating much harder and if you are struggling to get a girlfriend and when trying to think of reasons why it’s been hard and all you think to do is blame society instead of focusing on self improvement that’s a problem
Anecdotal evidence counts for shit but I’ll give it anyway of my friends/coworkers who complain “I can never find a good woman” about 3/4 have no hobbies where they ever interact with women and the last 1/4 fit the “I can’t have a normal conversation with a woman without trying to sleep with her”
Society itself does suck and it has made in person hobbies much less common with the death of the third space, isolating people through technology, and just how much it cost to live but I have never met a person who is even moderately social that has a hobby where they interact with people of the opposite sex, and has platonic female friends that couldn’t get a date in less than a year if they were actively searching.
Introverts need love too but if they look at their list of problems and rank “society hates men” above “I never see women in a social setting” that alone is their biggest problem
Nobody here is arguing that Trump supporters or stinky men who only care about women for sex deserve to have partners.
It's just that you and the OP don't acknowledge that finding a partner is hard for a lot of men who aren't jerks and have a reasonable amount going for them and the implication is that it's own fault and they must be a dick.
If you flip the genders and make a statement like: "if a woman can't find a decent man it must be their own fault. It's easy, just go and take up some male dominated hobbies and take a shower." Its an asshole thing to say, no?
So how about we try not to be assholes and have some empathy.
I have acknowledged it multiple times
I've looked and I don't really see that you have. You seem pretty dismissive of the fact that this group actually exists and quick to jump to attacking maga cultists and gross men who disrespect women - who nobody here is sticking up for.
Did you look two comments up when I said
“ The idea that men are struggling to find friends is a real concern that should be addressed”
Yes. There you're addressing friendship and in the rest of the comment you imply that its easy to find a partner by meeting a very low bar.
“ It’s not that they can easily find a partner if they meet a few requirements it’s that lacking those requirements makes dating much harder ”
The problem with "just get hobbies to meet women" is it's glaringly obvious when people are there to do that. You can't force yourself to enjoy an activity; you'll naturally do what you want, which is approach women.
Kind of a pointless truism. Dating is a numbers game, more encounters is more success. You even admit it could take this prospect up to a year of effort, now imagine that you have to build that opportunity network from scratch.
It is a pointless truism, and it is a numbers game which is why it’s so shocking people don’t see that!
So if one persons spends 1 hour a week with eligible women and the other person spends 10 hours a week with eligible women the second person is statistically much more likely to find a partner.
And if you spend only 1 hour a week with eligible women and instead of increasing that time you just decide to blame society that’s a you problem
There is also a difference between pretending to be interested in something to get laid and trying to find ways to do things you find interesting with other people
The time and energy investment to get those hours is not linear. Going from 0 hours to 1 hour is (by definition) a massive change. You're describing the solution as if there's an accessible way to make meaningful connections in the digital era. If it were as simple as described, we wouldn't have this societal problem because humans really don't like being lonely.
What's the difference? Your advice never said the hobby needs to interest you. This whole conversation is about finding companionship and intimacy, not group hobbies.
Also, all of this argument puts aside that diving into new group activities is time and resource intensive. Having the time, flexibility and money to switch between them just to meet a few new people is an incredible privilege. It also inherently assumes you have access to these groups. Guess if you live in a social desert or don't have reliable transportation you're SOL and a loser for life?
You mention this as being because of the digital era but what about that is any different than 25 years ago? If you don’t have time to spend a few hours a week pursing a hobby how are you going to have time to be in a relationship? The cost of pursing hobbies is a real concern for lower income people but how has that changed? How were you supposed to date a person if you lived in a social desert with no reliable transportation before?
Maybe I haven’t been clear with what I am saying because you are grossly misunderstanding my point.
I am saying when you have a problem you should try and improve yourself to address the problem vs blame society. For example if you can’t figure out how to program in python: you could read about it, watch educational videos, or take a course. Going onto a message board and complaining that python is impossible and stating we are in a programmer epidemic while not trying to learn it first is bad. We can make the acknowledgement that python can be hard for some people to learn but calling it impossible to learn without having put in the effort is useless
Right, so just a "bootstrap yourself" argument rather than looking at the flaws in our society.
You tell me, because there's clearly a problem! Your answer is that millions of people collectively decided to become unwashed, lonely losers overnight? That none of them have even attempted of joining a baking class or meeting people at the park?
Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is something that’s literally impossible to do. Telling a person that if they are struggling to meet women the first thing they should do is hang out in settings where women exist is literally just common sense, you even said it’s a pointless truism because of how obvious it is. Yet somehow many people are complaining about not meeting people and me saying you should hang out women is controversial…
I am saying there isn’t a widespread problem and isn’t causing it the “male loneliness epidemic” really cementing the lack of problem as if it was wide widespread and considering the majority of men are straight that women would also be affected?
I am once again saying the same thing I have been saying there is a growing group of people who are just complaining about a problem without taking steps to fix it and the rise of online message boards and engagement algorithms has created echo chambers that people get stuck in and a person should take the “obvious” steps to self improvement before writing off all their problems as “society”
I don't know what to say because you're just talking past any logical argument....
"We can't meet potential partners"
"JUST MEET WOMEM"
Uhhhh.... OK? You can say that but it doesn't make it true, all trends are pointing away from serious romantic experiences. Nearly 80% of baby boomers experienced a romantic relationships in their teenage years compared to 56% of Gen Z adults. In 2021, 54% of people ages 18-34 reported not having a steady partner compared to 33% in 2004.
They are? Women and men report dating is harder than it was before. Less singles overall are dating. Women have more fear for their physical/emotional saftey in the modern pseudo-anonymous dating pool.
A big reason it's framed as a male loneliness problem is the significant skew for women to be in committed relationships with older men, leaving younger men with an even larger singles cohort (32% of single women are ages 18-29 vs 51% of single men).
It's not that hard to do the research and have an informed opinion. Just writing everything off as an echo chamber effect doesn't work when there's measurable events in the real world. Unless you have actual evidence that it's a problem with their collective dating efforts then there's no argument to be made. It's not even based on anecdotal evidence, you're just saying you think all these commenters haven't tried your advice.
Are you referencing the pew research study that also found that a large percentage of those men weren’t looking for a relationship
Or the part where they define single to include casual relationships
One of the top reasons women didn’t want to date a man was Donald Trump
Men who were looking had their number one reason being “hard for them to approach people”
Did you also see the part where women were the ones most likely to say dating is harder now than it used to be largely out of fear of harassment
And while 12% say it’s harder to date because of technology 41% say it’s easier to date because of technology
You do know it’s possible to read information analyze that data and use it to form an opinion but since you don’t actually seem interested in that opinion and all you want to do is attack you can do that by yourself
I give up. You're just saying things for the sake of saying them. Literally none of that supports your hypothesis that it's a personal failing that can be cured by getting hobbies.
You really sound like someone who hasn't dated recently or knows any young people in the dating pool. Of the people I know, the research fits their complaints to the letter. They do work harder on self improvement than older generations ever did (mental health, physical health, public image on social media, etc...) with no results. Saying just go meet people is condescending, like a boomer telling people to get jobs by handing out printed resumes.
You think about this a lot, I respect that.