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this post was submitted on 23 Sep 2025
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Recognizing a state whose legitimate elected government launched a literal pogrom just a couple of years back. What a thing you're all celebrating.
Historical "pogroms" were by a dominant majority population against an oppressed minority population. So the term "pogrom" is a bad fit for anything that Palestinians do, or have ever done, or might do in the future, to Israeli Jews.
The other way round (settler violence) though? I don't use the term for that myself, but I don't think it is a wrong term for it.
Pogrom (a Yiddish word) in the proper sense means against this particular ethnic group - so correct term. But okay, by the generic definition, that's a fair argument.
Personally I don't see humanity as dominators and dominated, but rather in terms of individuals. The intentions of Hamas against individual Israelis are very clear from their words and deeds. All that they lack is the means. That's why I will not be celebrating statehood for a nation run (partly) by this group.
Yeah, ok buddy. Great individualizing there. Because individual Palestinians who have never voted for Hamas deserve to get bombed.
Like in your own words you showed you don't believe Palestinians as part of humanity.
That is certainly discussable lmao
The people of Gaza voted for Hamas, an overtly terrorist group with a genocidal manifesto, as their elected government back in ~~2007~~2006. Naturally that was their last election.
And the people of North Korea, China, Russia etc etc vote for their government regularly.
North Korea does not hold elections. China does not hold elections outside its ruling Communist Party. Russia holds occasional sham elections with stooge candidates.
The Palestinian election involved numerous parties and candidates, including leftist and liberals, and the Hamas victory was generally recognized as fair.
Clearly you have very little idea about this whole subject. I'd guess like most others here.
North Korea absolutely holds elections and they can even boast with having 100% voting participation. Their last election was 2019. And so does China..
Anyway, you can't possible argue that Hamas is the legally elected government in Gaza after abolishing all other political parties and not holding an election for 20 years. Maybe they once was, but they're no longer and not since a long time.
You obviously have even a less idea about this whole subject.
Given that you've clearly just looked these things up to justify yourself post-hoc, you should now know that there's no comparison with sham plebiscites in totalitarian countries (China holds proper-ish elections, at local level only, and only for vetted Communist Party candidates).
My point stands. The people of Gaza chose Hamas, a genocidal terrorist group, in a free and fair election. That doesn't justify what's happening to them today, but it's a fact.
Even if I did, it is true, is it not? It is not that hard to admit when you are faulty. You can do it, I believe in you!
No, your point is wrong and dumb. You proclaim Hamas to be the legally elected government which they maybe was in 2006, but as I said, that was almost 20 years go and after abolishing all political opposition. Now Hamas holds (held lmao) the same grip over Gaza as any other authoritarian regime does. And if you are still going to argue that this makes them the legal elected leaders, than China, Russia, Belarus, North Korea and whatever other state you want also has legally elected leaders and your arguing against their elections makes no sense.
Admit that I've got what wrong? I've only ever stated established facts. Many dictatorships are collapsed democracies. Russians also chose to abandon their democracy, having voted too many times for Putin.
Sure, the current situation is particularly unfair on the (very many) Gazans who were too young to vote 19 years ago. I'm sure we can agree on that.
Although, China is a one-party state so you at least got that part right. On the other hand
China is not a totalitarian country (yet at least), so that is wrong..
Anyway, the current situation is particularly unfair to all Gazans who aren't combatants, so that we can agree on. I think it is clear to everyone else that Hamas is not the legal government in Gaza, and that is obviously nothing I can force you to change your mind about, but I, with friendliness, suggest you think about why you differ in reasoning between Hamas and other authoritarian regimes.
This seems to be your personal definition of "totalitarian". From what I understand of the consensus of actual political scientists, North Korea has been totalitarian for decades and Russia and China both now pass the bar too (since the Ukraine invasion and Xi's tech authoritarian ramp-up, respectively).
Difficult to finish a sentence with condescension level at this pitch.
I assure you it is not. North Korea is definitely totalitarian but neither Russia nor China is. They're on their way to be, but aren't. Especially Russia was a very long way from being totalitarian until, as you said, the invasion of Ukraine.
I'm sorry, it was not meant to be condescending. I just wanted to point out that you held two different standards between different authoritarian regimes and that you might want to figure out why to come to a better conclusion, my bad.
Who cares what you assure me? We're talking about definitions. Yours are not those of the people who study these things closely.
Well fuck you mate. My field of study is political science and I can tell that yours isn't.
During wars there is generally no elections let alone during occupation
What recognizing a state that would be ruled by the palestinian autority has anything to do with hamas. Should i also remind you that israel army was created by terrorist groups like Hagana and lehi etc?
Aside from how plenty of other governments are recognised while committing horrific acts, this is recognition of Palestine, not Gaza. Even before the displacement and deaths of the last two years, most of Palestine's population was in the West Bank, and it is not run by Hamas. Hamas won the last election, but it did not get a majority and has not been in government for most Palestinians for almost 20 years
Citation needed. I can't think of anything comparable, certainly not since the UN's founding.
Fair point.
I'll go with a slightly older example so that it has more settled scholarship: Indonesia during the East Timor genocide. I don't think anyone stopped recognising Indonesia despite it invading and occupying what is now Timor-Leste, killing tens to hundreds of thousands of a population smaller than Gaza's, and conducting mass-scale sexual violence
Of course they didn't. But this is about an initial recognition. This one feels unseemly to me personally.
Not saying it's wrong in principle. It certainly feels like a "sympathy recognition", much like Kosovo and indeed Timor Leste itself. But in those cases the putative independent states were not run (even partly) by religious extremists with overtly genocidal intentions.
Still, I will agree that things are not black and white.
Was it a pogrom when Israel killed hundreds of their own civilians on Oct.7? Or only when the Big Scary Arab does it?
Read more about use of the "Hannibal Directive" on Oct. 7 here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#Gaza_war