187
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 30 Sep 2025
187 points (73.0% liked)
Memes
52691 readers
372 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 6 years ago
MODERATORS
Okay I would just upvote and move on, but you're clearly baiting with that title so if it's alright with you let's have some banter :P
If I say that
but I also say that I still don't like the Chinese state because I don't consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
Am I a "lib"?
Kinda? What do you think socialism looks like, if not the PRC? What about the PRC makes it not "genuine worker control," or more broadly, Marxism-Leninism not "genuine worker control?"
It's mostly to do with how the workers aren't in control of anything
The workers are absolutely in control. If you don't know what worker's congresses are, then you should do more studying, and less talking.
Trying to learn more here but the link seems broken :(
You might have to use one of the archive.today mirrors. A lot of ISPs block them for some reason.
Looks like it was my VPN, thanks!
np
They are, though. China is a democratic country, and public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy. Polling shows genuine democracy:
What would worker control have to look like for you to accept it?
Compared to the robust system of democracy in the US where corporations buy elections and the average person never gets to see a single policy enacted that benefits them? Is that what you're comparing China to?
No, the US isn't a democracy either
No lol. I mean, inarguably the us is more free by and large than china (usually, I'm talking normal timeline USA) but neither is a democracy.
Telling my wife to only judge me by my sober timeline
Not falling down drunk timeline
You're just talking out your ass here lmao. This is objectively not true.
China has better infrastructure. Better education. Better affordable healthcare (and they are rapidly about to eclipse the US in our capabilities). 90+% of Chinese people own their own homes. China is one of the safest countries in the world.
What freedom are you talking about? The freedom to die on the streets from preventable illness? The freedom to work 40+hrs a week and live out of your car because you are priced out of housing? The freedom to get shot at the grocery store because someone with a gun is having a mental episode? The freedom to get brutalized by an unaccountable police force?
What freedoms are you talking about?
Ah yes just ignore the blatant counterexample.
There's no other timeline genius, this is what the US system had been building up to for decades. This is the intended result, not an accident.
You know, Sparta was the actually most peaceful city in Ancient Greece (usually, I'm talking when they're not at war).
Edit: Also, there definitely is an algorithm that can determine if any other algorithm will halt or not (usually, I'm talking when you're not feeding its own source code back into itself).
The US is only more free for capital owners, for the working class China is far more free. The US Empire already is on "normal timeline US Empire."
Delusional
What was the date of the tianamen square massacre?
How many days since your last genocide?
It was 4. June 1989 when cia agents hijacked a peaceful protest in china and massacred civilians.
Why bring this up? You were doing the massacre, its your fault, it makes you look even more evil.
Half a fucking century ago loser, get new material
yes we can, because we have actually studied the political structure of china
The PRC isn't a western liberal faux-democracy, no, but it is a comprehensive unitary socialist democracy. Policy is usually pushed from the bottom-up, and there are comprehensive levels of provincial, regional, and national democracy. They abolished term limits for the presidential position, but that doesn't mean "president for life," Xi can be taken down democratically. It's unlikely, though, considering he enjoys over 90% support.
As for being "authoritarian," all states are. The difference with China is that the working class is in control of the state, rather than the capitalist class like in western countries.
I can't tell if you honestly believe the Chinese working class are in control of china. If so, bravo I guess. No point discussing much else
I do, because it's true, but I don't see why that means there isn't a point in discussing. Public ownership is the principle aspect of society, and capitalists are regularly punished for stepping out of line, while the working class has comprehensive democratic structures in place to pass the policies they want.
That's hilarious
I don't see what you mean.
Why do you liberal trolls just vague-post when you don't know what you're talking about?
You're not impressing anyone, and you would do better to actually read.
the users of .world passed around curated lists of "tankie trolls" to newbies so that they can be blocked before ever interacting with them; how about doing something like this for lib trolls?
Nah, let the stormfront / kiwifarms people distribute lists of targets / witches they feel need burning.
That's not our role as communists. In the words of Omar Mukhtar - "They are not our teachers"
Respectfully, lessons come in many guides, they just don't teach what they think they teach. That is, we've seen many iterations of lessons of what doesn't work for the people, unless it's new ways of oppression, suppression, a learned ignorance that can convince us we're smart.
If you have something to say, then I invite you to, otherwise it seems more like you don't and can't, and instead resort to insult to cover for that. It's just standard ad hominem.
If we want to be formal about it, you've just asserted a bunch of no sense claims without evidence. Go ahead and show us concretely the control the Chinese working class have over their political system.
And maybe not with polls that include people under 24/7 surveillance by the party.
For the PRC, public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and governs the large firms and key industries.
The working class is steadily advancing in material conditions, and as production develops it is increasingly planned. A bourgeois state would not allow capital to be so constrained and boxed in, and at the same time a state cannot be anything other than an extension of the ruling class. In China, this class has been the working class since the revolution, and it is backed up by the fact that the CPC is supported by over 90% of the population. This support is consistent even when western orgs gather the polling.
The PRC certainly isn't much farther than the primary stage of socialism, as they call it, but already aspects of the intermediate stage are appearing. Reality more closely aligns with the CPC's stated goals and strategies than it does their critics, which is why most ML orgs back China and consider it socialist right now.
People in China are under a similar level of surveilance as western countries, though unlike western countries this is mostly used against capitalists, so they cannot undermine the system.
None of my claims have been nonsense, the reverse is true.
The evidence has been provided as infinitum, if you could be bothered.
Not particularly
🤣🤣🙈🤣