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this post was submitted on 27 Aug 2023
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Crime usually has root causes like poverty, inequality, poor education, etc.
If you look at Europe, the crime rate is much lower than in the US. Gun violence is near non-existent outside of gang-related crime.
Most of Europe would be deep, deep blue if transferred to the US political scale. They have heavy gun control and redistribution of wealth results in much less financial inequality. In turn, it causes much lower crime rates.
I don't think US crime rates have anything to do with culture. It has to do with rampant inequality and easy access to weapons. Combine that with mental health issues, and you got a real toxic cocktail.
If you look here, you’ll see the total crime rate is higher in Europe than America.
https://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/2017-Crime-Statistics-Comparison-between-EU-and-US.pdf
For some reason people think Europe has less crime which isn’t true. I’m much more likely to be assaulted in Europe than I am in America.
We have murder problem but it’s very isolated.
Did you even make it to the end of that paper? It openly states that the discrepancies could be due to flawed data or that fact that widespread firearm ownership has resulted in criminals that will straight up execute you if things get out of hand.
Congratulations, you traded "having your phone stolen" for "having your child die screaming in agony on their classroom floor because a legal gun owner shot them in the spine".
I’m fine with the compromise. All studies point out possible flaws. Nothing new.
Of course you are, you think it proves you right. You'd be fine with it being written in crayon.
The rest of us are justifiably more skeptical about a paper that doesn't say what you imply it says and mispells "firearms" in the very first paragraph.
Europe has a lot of petty theft issues. Always have had.
In this thread, we were specifically talking about gun violence, which is through the roof in the US and almost non-existent in Europe. It's also the most dangerous type of crime, which often turns otherwise non-violent, petty crimes deadly.
And for some reason, conservatives don't want to look at the tools being used for gun violence. The guns.
Most of the people killing each other are not conservatives. As a conservative, I don't want to restrict my constitutional rights. I would prefer we focused on solving the crime issue. In the 90's, Biden pushed for longer prison sentences, more police, and more enforcement of the laws, which saw our murder rate decline. We need to do that again.
As a progressive, I'd prefer to look at the tools that enable the gun violence: The guns. It's just very clear that the US has an enormous problem with gun violence compared to other parts of the developed world. The thing that stands out is obviously easy access to weapons.
Fresh example: Jacksonville, where a rightwing nut went ballistic with an AR-15 in a racist rampage. Weapons bought legally, since he seemed like "one of the good guys with a gun."
Sorry, but I'm not willing to sacrifice school kids and my fellow Americans' lives to defend some "right" invented in a completely different time with very different types of weapons available.
To change it, you would need an amendment and that would be hard to pass.
Children dying is a rare thing, most gun violence is in the inner city.
Most murders are committed with handguns and not with rifles. In the 90's they banned assault weapons and the DOJ report said it did nothing to lower crime
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/03/factchecking-bidens-claim-that-assault-weapons-ban-worked/
I'm all for an amendment.
I just find it unreal that conservatives defend their guns over the lives of children. Especially after what we've seen in Uvalde and Sandy Hook and Columbine, etc. Zero change. Unreal.
It is a false argument. Firearms rarely kill children.
The left wants to defund the police, as such, that means I need to defend myself from crime.
You can't have it both ways. You either need to have more police or allow the citizens to defend themselves. It's why I moved out of the blue city to a red city. I would rather have a strong police force to defend my from crime rather than have to carry a firearm to defend myself.
So, not reaction to Uvalde, Columbine, Sandy Hook? Nothing? Seems on par.
You seem completely blind to anything outside the US.
Create happy populations and you don't need any of it. Europeans don't have guns and they don't have the violent police forces you see in the US. Yet, they are the happiest populations on earth year after year. Highly productive, highly educated.
Great equality. Create opportunity. Get rid of the desperation.
As the DOJ pointed out, a ban didn't solve anything. It didn't help the problem.
Parading dead children isn't going to impress me when the facts say it wouldn't have changed anything.
You want to ban something that is proven not to help and claim victory.
How do you want to prove it when we haven't tried it? It works in the rest of the developed world.
Why didn't you use your cool guns to save those children? You promised us that America would be safer if we sold you guns.
You didn't even offer to help clean them up after you failed them. You know someone has to right?
The Ulvade shooter was a legal gun owner. Do you think the people who had to pick up children's bones and brains were too?
Not my job. That’s why we pay police.
My guns are for my defense and the defense of my family.
Oh well taking a page out of your book, I don't care about you and your family either, so I'll just take your guns away for the safety of mine.
You don’t have the ability and scotus has clearly said I have a right to own firearms. So nice try troll.
But if you want to vote to make new laws, knock yourself out. I fully support your right to vote to change things but just realize it would require a new amendment which won’t pass in our lifetime.
I live in a very blue state and everyone I know carries a firearm. When the most liberal people I know own guns. It’s part of the culture of the state and it would be hard pressed to get anyone to change it.
So what are your plans if you're wrong?
Are you going to surrender your guns because you didn't actually need them like you claimed?
Will you submit to more thorough training, background and health checks as part of obtaining a firearm license, like you could have done 5000 mass shootings ago?
Will you become an illegal gun owner, like all the criminals you imagined gunning down in your hero fantasies?
Or will you go full terrorist, firing on the law enforcrment and going out in a hail of bullets, sacrificing yourself for your country like all the gun owners promised they would, even though they wouldn't even wear a mask protect their countrymen?
I am exempt from most training requirements as I’m prior law enforcement and military but sure, if I had to do training I would.
I already did the extended training in Oregon even though it wasn’t a requirement.
Of course I wouldn’t go full terrorist. I’m not a liberal.
Aww, what happened to Captain Facts-Over-Feelings? We know what the history and political views of the vast majority of domestic terrorists are -- far-right men who beat their partners.
Which makes it surprising there's not more John Snowlings. I guess when you're a cop, there's plenty of "body cam malfunctions" to work with.
I don't remember the right rioting much in the past 50 years. I do remember the left rioting every time they didn't get their way.
It's why we need the second amendment. The left like to riot while the rest of us want to live our lives without the hassle.
The Capitol riots on Jan 6 don’t ring any bells?
Protesting isn’t rioting by the way. The majority (not all, but most) of the BLM protests were non-violent until police (acab) escalated the situations by attacking unprovoked.
The one where nobody died from being murdered and lasted a few hours? Yeah I remember that one.
Compare that to all the others from the left and it’s a blink of the eye.
The right just never riots. Jan 6th was as much the right as idiots who should go to jail. Far right are just nuts but even they don’t riot.
The left on the other hand loves to riot.
Non violent? Over two dozen police people were killed during the riots. I man was murdered in Portland. I saw people pulled out of their cars and beat.
We most have a very different term for non-violent.
So when the right riots and invades a government building it’s not a riot, but when protesters are attacked by police and turn violent it is?
There you go! Mask off at last! "We need the second amendment to kill leftists".
Do you want to share with the class which "riots" you're talking about specifically? Apparently, you've got 50 years worth.
Or should we just connect the very obvious dots ourselves? You're an ex-cop, still seething about the BLM protests that put Derek Chauvin in jail, just for openly murdering a minority on camera.
And in a not very shocking plot twist, you're a staunch supporter of gun laws that routinely arm far-right shooters who fire into crowds of black people with their legal weapons.
People rarely fuck your wife when you're at work. What number is acceptable for you then?
Since she's not my wife, I'm comfortable insisting that a few hundred is nothing to get upset about. It's only a tiny fraction of the overall population.
Firearms rarely kill children?
Hundreds of children have died after being shot at school since Sandy Hook alone. Hundreds. That was only 13 years ago.
In that same period, do you know how many children died after being shot at school in Europe? It's a number between 0 and 0.
Zero ?
There was one last year in Germany.
Oh burn. He didn't even realise that Germany saw a 600th of the gun violence of America before talking shit like it was a largely solved probably with a solution that isn't even difficult.
You mean the one where nobody died, still leaving the european number at 0?
Oh hey that's what firearms rarely killing children looks like!
No comment on the rest of my point?
Getting easier every day. Do you think the kids are going to forget you sold them out to the gun lobby? Do you think they won't vote?
The pro-gun crowd has proven themselves completely incapable of addressing the danger to society their hobby creates. When they no longer have the power they need to stop progress, they're going to be shown exactly the level of compassion they showed victims of gun violence and traumatised children.
If they want to get all "cold dead hands" about it, they can go right ahead and die in a hail of bullets after firing on police. As far as I'm concerned, that's just the consequences finally meeting the cause.
Maybe you don’t understand how hard it would be.
You’d need 2/3 of the states to pass an amendments. It’s not happening anytime soon.
Tell that to your slaves.