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40,000 march in Spain against amnesty for Catalan separatists
(www.reuters.com)
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this post was submitted on 24 Sep 2023
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If a plurality of Catalonians want to separate then let them. This principal should apply to all peoples, from Scotland to Quebec to Taiwan to Hong Kong. As part of the western alliance of liberal democracies Spain should follow the paths set by Britain and Canada and hold a referendum. Not doing so puts them in the same club as China.
There is a legal path required in the constitution with which Catalunya can have a referendum. It is a high bar and involves support from more than just the people actively living there (as they are currently part of Spain and those Spaniards also have a vested interest in major changes to their country). People should really stop acting like this is some authoritarian regime and that they totally understand this Catalunya situation.
You people cheering on the separatists are also big fans of Brexit right? I'm not in Catalunya so it wouldn't impact me much. Might make my property value go way up as people flee if they did actually leave. But it would be a disaster for them worse than Brexit for the UK. And it is being pushed in a very similar us vs them rhetoric.
Also this title is such US two party centric hyperbolic bullshit. Sanchez has the most likely chance of forming a coalition in a multi party government. Claiming PP won with 32 percent of the vote and should get to rule with the ultra right ultra nationalist Vox because he got more votes than PSOE is a trash take by someone who doesn't realize multi party systems exist in most of the civilized world.
Personally, while I am in Spain, I don't have strong feelings about the amnesty. On the one hand, they knew they were breaking the law and I'm all for corrupt politicians from any party being put in prison. On the other hand, I don't want to see Vox get any bigger as they are far too large already. I would also like the heavy handed cops that got violent during the illegal referendum to be punished as well.
And Hong Kong? Fucking really? You think they are real happy about that choice these days?
I think brexit was stupid and did not benefit Britain or the EU, but I support their ability to choose to do it.
No, however I am a fan of self-determination, akin to Scotland's reaction to Brexit and the possibility of them splitting with the UK so they could reenter the EU. And with the UK exiting the EU it was a close enough vote to split the country. Catalonia voted over 90% to leave...regardless of the referendum's potential legality.
Whatever Sanchez is doing to try to court the Catalonain leaders in exile is vile, and shouldn't deter the will of Spaniards to choose their leadership, however governments outside winnter-take-all elections we have in the U.S. require political coalitions. Hopefully your politicians from different parties and interests can agree upon that and rightfully oust Sanchez.
If you want to see a real percentage of the people want to leave check the votes, not a referendum that was only favoured by one part, thats why it was 90%.
Last elections and past elections was below 50% if I remember correctly, with PSOE and PSC (catalan socialists from PSOE).
Sanchez is as vile as you would like, but actually now is in negotiations to stop prosecution and do an amnesty, I think you haven't followed news since 2017.
And honesty, indepence within modern democracy is complicated because the country belong to everyone and no one, is public. You cannot take your part of the state (Elon Musk style...) and expect other people being ok with it so easily.
And sorry, they are not opressed in colonial manner, they have representation, language, culture respected by the constitution as laws above all, and the same rights as all citizens in Spain.
You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. These protests are about people being angry that Sanchez might offer amnesty to those catalunyans who broke the law by having an illegal rather than legal referendum.
Most people didn't support the referendum, it had already been ruled illegal, and only those that were separatist voted.
Again, you do not understand how a multi party parliament works. Sanchez didn't really lose the election. The left wing parties got as many seats as the right wing parties with the junts sitting in the middle as mild king makers (they cannot help the right, they can only cause another election in which they will likely get wiped out).
And again, if Sanchez and the PSOE do not form a government but the PP and Vox do, then Spain will be ruled by an authoritarian ultra right nationalist party that has stated they intend on putting more national police and Guardia civil in Catalunya to prevent even protests.
Yet somehow, in all your political wisdom, are angry that Sanchez might give assistance to the people in trouble for having the referendum and thus he should be ousted so that the fascists can come in to power?
Why should anyone else have any say in Catalonias' decision to secede? It should be up to Catalonians only. By your logic the US would never have gained independence.
Canada (a liberal democracy) allowed Quebequois to decide for themselves whether to separate. The UK (another liberal democracy) did the same for the Scots. On the other hand China (an autocratic dictatorship) would never consider the same for Hong Kong. So you see in which camp your logic lies.
There is a perfectly legal means by which they can seek independence, but it turns out that this movement is louder than it is popular.
You mean changing the constitution? That's pretty much impossible for Catalonians given that the rest of Spain doesn't want secession. Incidentally that particular clause of the constitution dates back to Franco.. so Spain is using a fascist construct to deny a people the right to self government.
How is following the laws that Catalunya agreed to using a fascist construct? 95.5% of Catalunyans voted in favor of the constitution that enshrined them as part of Spain. They were given certain autonomous controls, that were later expanded giving them more control and most of the people didn't even bother to vote on it.
So explain to me, how this is fascist? Because I suppose you believe Lincoln was a fascist too then.
Don't forget Puerto Rico, but yes absolutely
Agreed. A majority of Puerto Ricenses would prefer statehood.. and they should receive it.
Because that really worked...
Quebec would have quickly failed as a state as the Anglophons fled, and would immediately be in a territorial war with the natives in north who had voted to stay in Canada if Quebec separated
As is their right.