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this post was submitted on 27 Sep 2023
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It's almost like the US prison system isn't meant to rehabilitate and instead is meant to control the lower class and imprison the 'right' people.
Right that sucks but is also the reason we shouldn't be letting them out.
So because our criminal justice system is so terrible, instead of changing anything about it, we just need to... *checks notes... keep people locked up indefinitely.
Man, I hope you're never railroaded with a false charge by cops and get what you want out of that. Locked up indefinitely over some made up bullshit because you yourself were like "Nah, we shouldn't release criminals, because our justice system is fucked."
This is some Olympic level mental fucking gymnastics here.
No. My point was don't let them out until it's fixed. No gymnastics required. I didn't say anywhere not to change things. Just don't release people that haven't been rehabilitated or even served their entire sentence.
You: "The system is broken, so we shouldn't let anyone out."
Man, I hope you never get busted for a crime you did or did not commit, seeing as you believe we should throw away the key like that. Would be a shame if the reason you weren't able to get out was because of people like you saying that BS.
If you put bad people in and do nothing to fix them you get bad people out. That's what this post is about. Wrongful convictions are also unfortunate but that's a separate issue. This guy was convicted and had a 30 year sentence not rehabilitated and released after 7. Now another woman is dead.
It may be a separate issue for you, but if you're advocating for throwing away the key like you are, you are advocating for people that were wrongfully convicted to continue be locked up. That's the whole point, and it went right over your head.
Are more people wrongfully convicted than shitty ones? If not unfortunately blindly releasing people from prison will do more harm then good. I'm all for reforming the system but just letting convicted rapists/murderers go free with no rehabilitation isn't the way to go.
Where did I say that I wanted to blindly release people from prison? You just outed how black and white you see the world. You only see these options: throw away the key, or let everyone out.
You clearly don't actually care about rehabilitation. It seems that you also just want to keep the 'right' people locked up. Hopefully this line of thinking stays in the minority where it belongs.
Currently there is no rehabilitation going on. Therefore, people going into prison are just as rehabilitated as when they come out, so yes, unless something changes they need to stay in there.
So you're suggesting that anyone convicted of a crime should be indefinitely imprisoned until everyone else gets their shit together and revamps the system at which point they can be rehabilitated and then reintroduced to society?
Are you fr bro? 😂
Are you suggesting we let unreformed murderers, rapists, and thieves loose on the streets?
Damn, would be a shame if you got put into prison indefinitely while we wait for reform to come.
Yea, that would suck for me. Doesn't mean we should release people we don't know are reformed. That would suck for everyone.
The idea that imprisonment is for rehabilitation is fucking stupid and new.
Prison may rehabilitate some people, and those people should have the means to seek that rehabilitation if they want to.
The main goal of prisons is to protect society from criminals by removing them and deterring others from committing crimes through fear of punishment.
I swear, some people just say dumb shit to see if it catches on. Unfortunately, 'prisons are for rehab' is just as stupid as calling people latinx.
I think it'd be hilarious if some right-wing troll just floated the idea to see how many fools would pick up on it.
"The United States suffers from among the highest crime and recidivism rates in the world. This is in part due to its focus on retribution as the purpose of punishment and its high sentencing structure. Norway, on the other hand, has some of the lowest crime and recidivism rates and boasts Halden prison, which has been hailed as the world’s most humane prison. In Halden and other prisons, the Norwegian penal system applies the principle of normality. Under the principle of normality, Norway seeks the reintegration of its offenders into society. Its prisoners suffer fewer of the negative, unintended side effects of prison that isolate the prisoner from society, reinforce bad habits, and make reintegration upon release nearly impossible. This Comment proposes that the United States could reduce its high crime and recidivism rates with a penological approach that bridges that of the two countries—a rehabilitative retributivism. The United States can keep its focus on retribution while at the same time making sure that its punishment does not swell to include those negative side effects. By reducing its sentencing structures and incorporating the principle of normality into its retributive goal, the United States could better ensure that prisoners return to society as productive members, and it could experience lower crime and recidivism rates as a result."
https://scholarlycommons.law.emory.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1177&context=eilr
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https://www.lipsum.com/
Weak response. Play the ball, not the person.
Lol, what?
You are a trash human
Right. Now we see how you react when backed into a corner.
Hahahahaha dude I was probably shitting btwn meetings in my real adult life laughing at you, while writing you. You're clearly paradigms above me Big Dog. I didn't even know I was in a conflict in my life but apparently I was cornered.
While we're at it.. dayum! I'm triggered!
Lol, calm down.
Norway enters the chat.
What about it?
The only difference between Norway and the US is their prison system?
Norway has demonstrated that rehabilitating prisoners leads to less crime than just punishing them. Who would be against that?
People who realize there are more differences between Norwegian society and American than just how they treat their prisoners.
Norway didn't 'prove' your point. Sorry you think they did.
I've provided evidence to back up my position. What have you provided except your opinion?
What do you mean 'my opinion'?
It's a fact that there are more differences between Norway and the US than how they treat their prisoners. Do you think these differences may impact the recidivism rate of prisoners in either nation?
I'm addressing your main point, which was:
My point is that deterrence has been proven to be a poor tool to reduce crime. Rehabilitation has been proven to be a relatively more successful tool to reduce recidivism.
The Norwegian approach to prisoners is one piece of evidence in support of this. Here's some more (non-Norwegian) evidence:
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/fear-punishment-deterrence
https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7363&context=jclc
Of course there are other differences between the US and Norway, but that doesn't change the validity of what I'm saying. If you want to argue that deterrence works, back it up with some evidence.
You didn't answer my question.
Do you think these differences may impact the recidivism rate of prisoners in either nation? Yes or no.
Your question is vague and unanswerable as you haven't clarified what "these differences" are, so their impact on recidivism can't be determined.
What I do know is that rehabilitation has been shown to reduce recidivism more than sanctions/supervision. Here's a meta-analysis for you. It looks like at least some of this data is from the US.
"Supervision and sanctions, at best, show modest mean reductions in recidivism and, in some instances, have the opposite effect and increase re-offense rates. The mean recidivism effects found in studies of rehabilitation treatment, by comparison, are consistently positive and relatively large."
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mark-Lipsey/publication/228187332_The_Effectiveness_of_Correctional_Rehabilitation_A_Review_of_Systematic_Reviews/links/0deec518c2b2abd5fc000000/The-Effectiveness-of-Correctional-Rehabilitation-A-Review-of-Systematic-Reviews.pdf
What evidence do you have that deterrence and supervision are more effective at reducing crime than rehabilitation?
Lol, okay. I have my answer.
You know there are other factors that influence the recidivism rate for both countries, but you're ashamed to admit it because you know it detracts from your point.
Glad we can clear that up. Have a nice day.
You are ascribing a position to me that I don't have.
Nor have you provided any evidence for your point while I have provided links to several studies. Pony up some evidence for your argument or be prepared to learn and grow. Or remain stubbornly wedded to your incorrect opinion. Makes no difference to me.
Then admit it? It's not that difficult.
"Yes, there are other factors that influence each nation's recidivism rate." See how easy and unambiguous that was? But instead you tried to take the sly road of saying I "didn't mention what those differences are." I shouldn't need to. That isn't my point. Lol.
Like I said, you know they exist but clearly want to avoid admitting it because it detracts from your point.
I don't need to. Once we establish that the are other factors (finally), then I can ask you why you believe Norway's prison system significantly outweighs their impact on prisoner recidivism.
See how simple and easy discussion can be when you're not afraid to say what you mean?
You're funny. Clearly you aren't interested in having a good faith debate about facts, but just to troll.
I wonder who you work for? Russia maybe? Judging by your post history, you have some agenda here. Think I'll watch and see.
Err... what?
Do you say that about everything you don't like?
Hahahahaha I don't bc that wouldn't make sense!
Do you always validate the very statements from which you're trying to deflect by acting them out in real time?
(E. G. you didn't acknowledge you were being like BS. And then, like BS, drew a false correlation to what I was saying and shifted the subject. Much like BS, the subject matter itself being the "opponent's" "tactics.")