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this post was submitted on 03 Jun 2023
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chapotraphouse
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it blows my mind when I see obviously queer people come into these threads to say that it is fucking terrifying that our very last defense against genocide - tokenizability and monetazability - is evaporating in mere weeks, and then very obviously not queer people come in and say "hey actually the corporations never supported you they were just pretending to drive up their sales"
:what-the-hell:
edit: I'm deeply shocked I need to say this, but us queer communists know that the corporations never supported us and they were just pretending to drive up their sales. I'm making the first statement with the full knowledge that the second is true. The thing I'm complaining about is when people see what can absolutely be interpreted as a nuanced take and instead assume the most bad faith possible bourgeoise-praising.
this is literally true though and not mutually exclusive with this statement
those things were never really defenses against genocide. they were the bourgeoisie lulling us into a false sense of security.
quite an assumption to make. I'm nonbinary, I was raised by lesbians. my grandpa is bisexual. my mom is bisexual. reactionary phobia affects myself and and everyone in my family but i have never for one moment believed that corporate pride was ever going to defend me or my loved ones or the broader LGBTQIA+ community. if anything shallow corporate pride gave the false appearance that we are the cultural hegemony, and paints a target on our back, and allows reactionaries to feel like they're the "real outsiders" when really their culture has always been hegemonic. amerikkka is a genocidal reactionary capitalist empire. never has LGBT pride been hegemonic, and never has corporate pride protected us from reactionaries. hell, the corporations were probably holding onto the names of everyone who ever bought a pride flag or bumper sticker and selling it off to the bloodthristy reactionaries who were sharpening their knives. our last line of defense was never corporate tokenization or commodification of our identities, but mutual aid, solidarity with each other, getting armed, getting organized, providing each other with shelter and protection from reactionaries.
"this is literally true though and not mutually exclusive with this statement" true! accurate. I never said it wasn't. That's what this whole thing is about.
this is actually a solid counterargument. I'm not fully sure I agree but it's a thinker.
no, mutual aid, solidarity with each other, getting armed, getting organized, providing each other with shelter and protection from reactionaries are our best lines of defense. Those fell through. Now we're down to our last one, which is really shitty and barely buys us more than nothing. I'd really really like to get those first, good lines of defense back and that's a great deal of the organizing work that I do.
i understand what you mean, but there's still time (not enough time, obviously, but a nonzero amount) to find some comrades in your local area and help fortify each other for what's coming
btw i'm used to having these discussions with my older family members, who remember the times long before there was any performative pride coming out of corporations. they're still to this day weirded out by it. it simultaneously seems too good to be true (and I think it is too good to be true) and kinda creepy to be "honored" by the very same faceless entities who in the 70s and 80s were bending over backwards to demonize us.
right? Straightsplainers/cissplainers are crazy, like what genuinely do you think the odds are that you are talking to a queer person on a communist message board that thinks Target would meaningfully go to bat for them
Lived experience is a valuable source of information, but it's not totalizing. People can indeed be wrong, and ideas like "Tokenism can save us!" tend to be wrong. You can complain that I'm cishet, but I know multiple queer people who would have said exactly what I did (albeit with reference to their own experiences, at least in one case). Lucky for them, they have better things to do than be on this website, so here I am.
Lived experience isn't totallizing but you understand how seeing an indicator of social tolerance going away is concerning, right? Like I've helped shut down Pride before over cops and corporations but I'm also worried about the current climate, y'dig?
The question to ask right now isn't "how concerning is this really?" But "how do i support my queer comrades?"
I know that public housing would go a long way for my community right now, help us stay in the gay neighborhood, help the runaway kids get on their feet, help folks kick heroine, give us the stability to participate in our institutions. What's your local DSA up to?
As an indicator of social tolerance capitulation to reaction, I 100% agree it is concerning. I merely think the framing of choosing between "reactionary workers or pro-lgbt bourgeoisie" is harmful.
My local DSA are a bunch of Vote Blue asshats.
Like, the last thing is true, but it's still a worrying indication of which way the wind is blowing (worrying is an understatement)
it absolutely is but they come in with such "Aha! I've caught you! I've identified the hole in your argument, there's no way you already knew that corporations don't like gay people!" energy
Did we read different posts? I know that I tend to come off differently from how I mean, but clearly the interest of the replies here is not entrapment. Look at this part of the OP:
I must give OP relative credit for the very last part, but taken at face value this generally seems to actually be insinuating that the bourgeoisie might be pro-lgbt and therefore worth siding with against reactionary workers. That's a catastrophic error and a case of severe miscommunication on their part if your representation of them is accurate to their actual views.
saying any bourgeoise is better than any proletariat is kind of a whack take but as a queer person, it's not the CEO of Walmart who's going to knock my teeth out at a gas station at night. Did he contribute to the material conditions that right-radicalized much of the proletariat? Yes. Obviously the bourg is the ultimate evil. But no doubt that given the current state of things, the reactionary proletariat needs to be handled ASAP. I get the gut reaction against them.
I was also careful to say "these posts" because (at the time of writing at least) there's nothing too crazy in here but I've seen way worse in some other threads of a similar type.
"handled ASAP"
What do you mean by this specifically? Because until you turn off the reactionary font of capital pouring in brain-scrambling ideology and creating conditions of alienation, this is attempting to bail out the titanic with a spoon. Even if some portion of the proletariat hold reactionary worldviews, there's nothing for us to do about it still strategically except target the reactionary source (capital). Attempting to "handle" them individually with violence a la carte, in class collaboration with the bourgies, is an insane thing to propose on a communist site and should be called out for the reactionary class collaborationism it is
I don't propose a solution, I just think it's just a little rash to go straight for capital while we're still fielding attacks from half of the proletariat too. A solution might look like some kind of rainbow-coalition style organizing to recapture some of the reactionary proles, but I have no idea. One thing I'm very sure of though is that letting this turn into a violent inter-proletarian civil war is about one of the worst possible outcomes, because the bad guys will win, and very quickly
Agreed, and a surefire way to that happening is having half of the proletariat fighting on behalf of "good" corporations and allowing corporations to control the political organizing of a bunch of the proletariat, causing ideological confusion and chaos
if the half of the proletariat fighting on behalf of “good” corporations you're talking about is the liberals, I wouldn't worry too much, they won't fight for anything besides a seat at the brunch table. The only fighting is going to come from the evangelical fundamentalist side.