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Moment Israeli airstrike hits Gaza tower block after Hamas attack – video
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
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This is the same Israel with their elite mossad forces, yes? "Meat shields" are a poor excuse for indiscriminately bombing a city block when you have elite spec ops units. They don't do it because they have no other choice, they do it as a threatening show of force. "Fuck with us and we'll kill anyone even near you".
There's a middle ground that doesn't involve slaughtering innocents.
Any chance you can school me in the rights and wrongs of this situation, I have tried to read up on the situation between Israel and Palestine and I just can't work out who, if anyone is at fault. It just seems like a crazy unresolvable mess.
On the face of it I would just think the solution is to let the Palestinians have their bit of land and be done with it, why is it not that simple?
Also it's really hard to understand who is justified in their actions. I often find myself feeling sorry for the Palestinians but then I see them riding through London celebration the murder of innocent people and it makes it really hard for me to feel sorry for them. Similarly with Israelis, it's horrible that they have innocent civilians murdered but killing 250 in response is just crazy...
I'm not trolling or shit posting I honestly can't work it out.
There's a good Louis Theroux documentary that might give some context.
Tldw, Israelites aren't really respecting the borders - in this doco they send over zealous Jewish people from various countries to buy up and live in properties in these disputed areas to slowly take it over. Palestinians retaliate aggressively, typically violently.
Thanks all for teaching me a little about this situation, it is kind of how I had imagined it and there is no real immediate solution. I guess like any long standing conflict there are failings on both sides and neither willing to capitulate. As has been alluded to, it just does not seem to warrant the loss of life on both sides. I might do a little bit of reading on the local politics to see how this is played out to their respective populations.
Louis Theroux is always a good call!
I'm so confused, "various Jewish countries?"
No, Jewish people from various countries. Radical fucks reach out to Jewish communities abroad, the less educated and poorer the better, radicalise people into militant Zionism, the type that's completely at odds with past or present facts and only knows erm manifest destiny (to draw a parallel), then brings them into Israel which is easy because Israel hands out free passports to all Jews.
I mean, it's usually more like... Jews the world over are sick of their home countries and want to live in Israel, don't realize how expensive it is, go there, can't afford housing in Israel proper, and are told they can go live in the settlements. Or, demand causes Jews in Israel to seek cheaper housing.
Which is still an issue, but your conception is really not the norm.
It really doesn't make a difference in the end though, does it, whether people first arrive and then are radicalised (you can't set foot into a settlement without meeting awful but well-organised people, we're not talking about Hippie Kibbutzim), or whether you're radicalised before arriving, or whether the outreach programmes directly indoctrinate abroad or wait until the inevitable happens.
...I'll freely admit that I'm not deep into the details. I'm simply going off my Aunt's rants who actually lives in the country.
I mean, what she's describing has kind of happened. But it's not like Americans are coming over and building their own homes at the behest of Israeli chasids. The settlements are being built by greedy land developers, and Netanyahu is turning a blind eye for... well, complex reasons, but ultimately mostly because he's a corrupt dirtbag.
Some people do go to live on hippie kibbutzim.
So, depends on the incident in question who's at fault changes, but the ones with the power to change the situation are Israel and they're not doing that. Indiscriminately killing civilians is never justified, but with how Israel has been treating Palestinians you can understand where the attitude came from. People tend to hate the shit out of their oppressors, especially when those oppressors put them in open air concentration camps.
That aside there's Israeli settlement in the West bank and East Jerusalem, the whole Apartheid thing, y'know it's a long list. Basically Israel created a situation where terrorism and other armed action is the only way to fight back, which predictably caused terrorism.
I appreciate your thoughtful response. Unfortunately it is an incredibly murky mess at this point. Say you side with Palestine and say it's their land. Do you then kick out the people who were born on the land after the conflict started? Innocent people who's only crime is the location of their birth? Or do you side with Israel and claim it's their land now and do the same to Palestinians? Where do you put the people you relocate?
I won't pretend to have an answer to that. Just pointing out that either answer has numerous problems which is part of why no solution has been reached yet. Few, if any, solution will be a "win-win". Someone will have to concede, and neither side seems willing to right now.
That said, indiscriminate violence from either side is abhorible. I detest the death of any innocent civilian in all of this. "Two wrongs don't make a right" and all that. Both sides have committed crimes and those responsible should all be held accountable for turning the area into a warzone.
We can also spice it up with a bit of game theory. Assumption: Most people on both sides genuinely want peace.
Addition: On both sides, fractions exist which benefit from the conflict. They gain from stirring up hate, provoking fights, portraying threats. They lose power and influence when peace talks succeed. They gain power and influence when their "partners" from the other side attack.
So yes, this is a wicked problem to solve, for many reasons.
I've tried, the whole situation is a shitshow right now.
That is such a weird way to phrase it. A "bit of land" like Palestinians were some kind of barbarian spawn that just showed up there.
As a Palestinian I want to personally say to you that no one needs you to be sorry for us so you can stop worrying.
It's an incredibly complex situation, but as a baseline:
Intentionally targeting civilians is unacceptable.
Hamas does this with great pride. It celebrates the slaughter and kidnapping of civilians. It pays the families of terrorists in celebration of their terrorism.
In my opinion, the IDF is remarkably careful not to kill civilians. There have been incidental killings, largely, from my knowledge, when Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas such as homes, mosques, hospitals, and schools. There have been rogue Israeli actors who killed civilians intentionally, and they have mostly been tried and convicted for their crimes. There have been moral failures on behalf of the IDF, but it does generally investigate those failures seriously, rather than celebrating them.
I do sympathize for innocent Palestinians who are doubly oppressed by Hamas and the Israeli occupation, but feel that the occupation is necessary to prevent greater violence against Israeli civilians.
That's about all I can give you without digging into the history.
Anyone who calls the IDF careful about avoiding civilian deaths is either deeply ignorant or arguing in bad faith and seeking to legitimize a highly brutally murderous apartheid regime.
https://jcpa.org/the-gaza-war-2014/israel-gaza-humanitarian-law-civilian-casualties/
https://kbin.social/m/Israel/t/368817/A-handy-list-of-sources-describing-where-Hamas-produces-stores
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-usa-gaza-idUSKBN0IQ2LH20141106
The sheer number of civilian casaulties makes all of this irrelevant, and makes you an apartheid apologist. I don't engage with supporters of apartheid regimes, so enjoy the block.
"Hamas may be using its civilians as meat shields, but no matter how careful Israel is, you're not allowed to call them careful because many of the meat shields still end up dying!"
You're a Hamas apologist. I haven't defended anything that could be called apartheid, and wouldn't. But go ahead and blame me for citing facts.
Thanks for your input, it's always good to get people's perceptions on things, it all helps build context.
Israel does nothing "indiscriminately." Israel uses lots of advanced technology to try to make sure the buildings it attacks are clear of civilians: both to check the buildings and to warn any potential civilians they might have missed to evacuate. The "middle ground" approach is exactly what the IDF is doing.
Ah yes, perhaps you can check Wikipedia and compare the numbers of civilian casualties and tell us again, how Israel is doing everything to protect the civilians.
The truth is that after each Palestinian attack when you compare the numbers of civilian casualties you can see that they are a couple of times higher on the Palestinian side.
This tactic isn't exactly the one screaming I want to find a long term peace solution. And mind you, I am not defending Hamas here, what they did is horrible, the problem is that neither of the sides is looking for reconciliation, which is sad, and that the innocents are the ones who suffer the most.
Israeli civilian deaths from this attack—which again, was actively, intentionally targeted at civillians—were 250. IIRC, the latest number of Palestinian deaths, including combatants, in 2023, is "over 200."
But I wasn't talking about numbers. I was talking about intent, effort, strategy. Yes, some Palestinian civilians do die as a result of attacks by Israel. Israel tends to be better at protecting its civilians, Hamas intentionally puts its civilians in harm's way. Yes, to some extent, the numbers reflect that.
And by the way, there are also Palestinians dying to friendly fire caused by haphazard rocket fire.
And I said by the time this recent escalation ends. Meaning that this end won't be today as the retaliation of Israel is currently ongoing and surprise surprise civilian casualties numbers are not going to be updated immediately.
Do you really believe that there won't be any retaliation strikes from Israel that won't involve civilian deaths on the Palestinian side? Because if you do you are a fool!
Again not defending Hamas, just saying that seeing only one side of the conflict and what their wrongdoings are isn't the best approach in this case.
I didn't say that.
I really don't think Israel will target any civilians. Some rogue IDF soldiers have done so in the past, but it's rare and generally punished quite quickly.
I can't say which side will suffer more civilian casualties, but I know that Hamas's goal is to cause as many as possible, and Israel is making very active efforts to cause as few as possible. The fact that Israel is well-equipped to defend itself and Hamas doesn't feel like it will, inevitably, skew the statistics.
Oh so your point is that Israeli civilian casualties matter more, right? Plus provide me with any proof that IDF soldiers are really trialed and effectively put into prison with effective sentences.
Plus the whole fact that Israel is not a member of the ICC speaks volumes about their human rights track record https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/arabs-israel-stay-sidelines-raging-democracy-battle-2023-07-26/#:~:text=While%20Israel%20says%20it%20grants,more%20than%20three%20times%20higher.
Plus it is not like Israeli politicians are not complicit by inciting racial hatred by stating that certain Palestinian villages must be erased or by continually expanding the Israeli settlements in disputed territories. So I don't know for you but in my books that's not exactly screaming actively looking for a peaceful solution to the problem. You should also check what pretty much every independent human rights watch group has to say about the issue.
Again not defending any civilian casualties and I wish both parties were actually looking to resolve this problem in a peaceful manner through diplomatic channels. Unfortunately that boat departed, after the Oslo accord, there are no real attempts to reconcile instead things seem to be getting worse every year with no hope in sight.
I don't appreciate the way you're intentionally dodging my point and then intentionally mischaracterizing it.
My point is that Hamas is trying to increase the count of civilian casualties on both sides, and the IDF is trying to decrease civilian casualties on both sides.
You're just counting the victims. Look at the perpetrators for just a second.
does it? How so?
There are a few Israeli extremists who say shit like this. They're monsters. The vast majority do not speak like this. As opposed to the majority members of the Palestinian Authority. A majority of the PA is literally members of Hamas, truly committed to the deaths all Israelis and all Jews they can get their hands on, as evidenced not only by their charter but by their actions.
Unfortunately, the current majority in Israel is not interested in enforcing rules against expanding settlements. That does suck. But the bulk of the minority—which is likely to take control in the next election, unless this crisis changed things—is very willing to reign in settlements.
You are missing the point, I have defended my thesis with a couple of facts and even provided a link, your point is only based on assumptions and you failed to deliver any verifiable fact.
I have asked you to provide any verifiable link of convicted IDF soldiers, but you did not.
Anything to say about the Jenin refugee camp, do you think using excessive violence there was justifiable? https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/07/1138487
Have you ever wondered why Israel is not a member of the ICC, or which other countries are not part and why? Because they don't want to be held accountable for their army's war crimes.
And maybe some more food for thoughts:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/02/un-experts-say-israel-should-be-held-accountable-acts-domicide
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses
https://www.globalr2p.org/countries/israel-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territory/
If the link you presented had anything to do with the paragraph you presented in, I absolutely missed it, can you please draw the connection for me?
I missed that.
https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/IDF-soldier-convicted-of-killing-Gaza-rioter-606298
That's the first one I could find, I'm busy, what with it being Simchat Torah in the diaspora.
Well, you begged the question there, and I'm not intimately familiar with the situation, but from what I understand, not particularly, no.
No. I never cared. I don't know why Israel would subject itself to any kind of international jurisdiction, with the way the international community treats it. Have you seen how obsessed the UN securuity council is with Israel, while it ignores human rights violations everywhere else in the world? Why the fuck would we want to invite more of that?
I just looked it up, Israel stated its reasons, it objects to the language about population transfer: https://press.un.org/en/1998/19980720.l2889.html. I'm sure you have a much more conspiratorial reason in mind?
And I'm familiar with fucking Amnesty International and HRW, I'm not living under a rock.