this post was submitted on 15 Oct 2023
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~~You really enjoy using inciting language like „genocidal conquerors“, huh? You are also purposefully mixing the Israeli government and the civilian population. Are you referring to Hamas as „baby slaughtering and murdering rapists“ on the other hand? By your standards you have to extend this to the whole population of Gaza, too.~~
Edit: I posted my reply to a comment from iyaerP falsely - corrected that.
Settlers aren't the government, they're just private citizens taking people's homes from them. This all sucks. We're all losing. No one is winning when children are dying.
We shouldn't have to constantly qualify every statement we make when we talk about this. Just a constant stream of tone policing while children are dying.
Just that children are dying because of spiral of hatered and violance, promoted by populism. But its obviously up to everyone if they want to participate.
People here are overwhelmingly anti Israel.
I'm not, I'm pro Palestinians and pro Israeli... I'm anti Hamas, Netanyahu and Settlers though
That is good, but read what people post here, it is completely fucked up. Twisting reality and history to fit their narrative. On Reddit I see it mostly the other way around, with overwhelming support to Israel, wanting to flatten all of Gaza etc. People are fucked up.
Link a thread that's like what you're claiming all of lemmy is like.
Read this comment tree and tell me what you think.
Technically using white phosphorus in a densely populated area to start fires is just a war crime...
But yeah, Israel's actions fit the modern definition of genocide, because they're treating civilians as enemy combatants and bombing the evacuation routes they told civilians was safe
https://www.britannica.com/topic/genocide
You don't get a free pass to commit genocide because a completely unrelated group tried to do on to your ancestors 80 years ago...
Hamas says IDF bombed it, IDF say it was Hamas. We don't know. Hamas has a ton of reasons to do that, the IDF has essentially only the "they want to commit genocide" side of reasons. But in a very odd way, since they try to avoid killing civilians otherwise, which that sides argues away with "secret genocide", which this obviously would not be. So I tend to assume that it was Hamas.
We do know, though. Israel, officially and as a government policy, has been bombing this area for nearly 80 years. What Hamas did is deplorable but not at all unexpected. Unless you expect them to just be ok with being regularly bombed and with their families executed, I’m not sure how anyone can be surprised by Hamas’ reaction. The number of people dead on the Palestinian side dwarfs the number dead on the Israeli side. It’s not even close no matter how you slice it (men, women, children, total) and, to me, seems more like a little kid who has had enough of their bully picking on them and stabs them in the eye with a pencil. It’s horrible but would it still have happened if they weren’t constantly being bullied? I doubt it.
Well yeah, bombing evacuation convoys will do that.
Fuck Hamas and fuck Israel.
Support innocents on both sides
Both sides say the other side did it. Do you already know which one it was? I don't. Hamas appears to be more likely, but we will see.
Otherwise: I agree.
I think it was the BBC who broke it down with shadow analysis and geolocation to prove it happened where and when they said it did.
Israel has already bombed right next to the border crossing to Egypt to shut it down.
If I have 2 groups and one bombs a border crossing and then someone bombs an evacuation convoy then that is just pattern recognition.
I will allow that there is a chance that it was Hamas, but occams razor my friend
They bombed there to stop the transfer of fuel from tanker trucks.
How is Occam's razor against Israel in this question?
Got a link to that?
example
So you are ok with Israel blowing up humanitarian aid?
If AMERICANS were coming through with humanitarian aid, I promise you Israel would blow them to fucking smithereens.
How do I know this? It's pretty simple. We fund universal health care for them and their citizens. They turn around and donate millions of dollars to political operatives who deny us the same type of treatment. Israel is an enemy of humanity.
Probably also overwhelmingly anti Nazi.
its just so sad. i thought reddit had pretty extreme views, but lemmy seems to be just worse. i guess this is where the crazies went when they got banned from reddit.
and lemmy's growth will suffer for it.
It's not extreme to recognize that a US-backed apartheid state is running an extermination campaign against a marginalized group. While a small number of Palestinians are members of Hamas, that doesn't give Israel the right to commit genocide. Not that they've needed "the right" to do so for the past 70 years.
A small part of Germans were Nazis, but all of Germany had to be defeated to stop their terror. How would you have dealt with them?
Hamas are far smaller, obviously, but able to commit just as fucked up atrocities. They actively use the innocent civilians as their meat shield. How to deal with them?
Yes. The terrorists use the suffering of the Palestinian people in Gaza as an excuse to attack Israel.
Now; If the government of Israel was to stop the horrible treatment of Palestinians by rightwing ‘settler’ provocateurs and its own soldiers, then Hamas (or any other terrorist organisations) would have very little excuse to use Gaza as a base.
They wanted to destroy Israel ever since it exists. Attacking it on the first day after they declared independence. Not accepting any sort of deal, only wanting destruction.
How to deal with people that want to destroy you, never settling for less? Despite getting defeated every time.
What?
Do you think Israel was just empty land no one was using?
If the people who used to live their for generations attacked it the day after Israel was formed...
Doesn't that just mean they tried to fight off invaders to protect their home?
You're acting like Israel was somehow the victim for stealing a shit ton of land that was culturally significant to the rightful residents.
If me and my cousins showed up to your house, told you God gave it to us, would you "attack" us to defend your home? Or just go off and live on the street a couple miles away?
Millions of Germans were removed from east Europe after WW2, with 100'000s dieing. Nazis did not come back and terrorise those countries.
Something that happened 80 years ago is absolutely not a valid reason to keep killing your own and the "enemies" people.
I do t think k that happened.
Are you saying if Israel dissolved and left the area there's be peace? Finally, we agree on something.
You don't think it happened? This will get you started.
So that's your solution for the Israel conflict?
Send all the Israelis back to where they came from and let the native people have their land back?
Gotta say, little extreme for me, but you do you homie.
You ignore our previous discussion, do not acknowledge if you were right it wrong, and put absurd stuff in my mouth. What do you expect me to answer when you treat me like that in a discussion?
Israel was a settler-colonial project from its inception. The people living there had every right to oppose it.
Might makes right?
Yes, opposite it. Look for a solution both sides can agree on. Fighting war for 80 years with the started goal of destroying Israel is not a viable solution.
You're pretty stuck on this "stated goal of destroying Israel" thing, aren't you?
If conditions changed such that Palestinians could lead fruitful and peaceful lives, then they would do so. Even under current conditions they mostly just try to get by.
It is not me who is stuck on that. It is even stated in their official documents. How could you ever expect to have peace with such a horrible entity?
Pretty simple, follow the American example and judge people based on their actions instead of their associations. Israel would have put in more humanitarian work if they really wanted to defeat Hamas. Instead they decided to prop up a/the mutually genocidal political opponent. I wonder if they're even capable of learning.
You're conflating Hamas with all Palestinians in order to justify genocide.
My friend, that is a very fucking dangerous argument you're making there.