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this post was submitted on 22 Oct 2023
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We don't have secret police, we call them undercover agents.
Please tell the Black Lives Matters protestors who were routinely beaten to the curb and tear gassed for expressing a first amendment "right" that they aren't under surveillance.
Please tell the Portland protestors who were kidnapped by Trump-led federal agents they are living in a normal country.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/aug/04/bob-casey/sen-bob-casey-said-federal-agents-kidnapped-protes/
I'm sure Snowden is thankful he's able to live freely after exposing that an international spying agreement was gone, and didn't have to go into hiding. Same for Chelsea Manning who 100% wasn't put into solitary confinement and forbidden to talk to the public.
If revealing the truth that your government is committing crimes is punished, you are being ruled by criminals.
Dude I'm not denying any of those are fucked up and outside of what our constitution provides for under freedom of speech, assembly, and press (many reporters were also arrested and had their footage destroyed). My point is that, despite these absolute abominations by the ruling class, the average person does not live under a constant state of surveillance and oppression in the same way that those in N Korea, Myanmar, Russia, China, etc do. Sure all of our online activity, communications, and movements are monitored, at least passively in a database, but unless we are actively causing major amounts of trouble we likely won't have the good squad breaking down our doors and hauling us off for saying "fuck the government" online. It could be so, so much worse (and quite possibly could get there in our lifetimes, if we keep being apathetic about the state of our country).
There is no such thing as passive surveillance if all surveillance data can be automatically flagged or you have an army of agents trawling through it all. Both things America is doing.
Saying fuck the US government online probably puts US citizens as well as global citizens on lists.
America is notorious for embedding into and destroying movements. This happens to this day.
Also hate to break it to you, if you're in the US you're physical movements are also most likely tracked.
It's pure cope to say you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide as you just did.
You both agree on the fundamentals, you just draw the line at what you're calling a "true" police state. This argument is unproductive.
This comment is unproductive.
We do disagree on a fundamental fact, that America is a police state.
bobs_monkey hypocritically excuses american actions when they would use the same actions committed by non aligned states as evidence that they are police states.
Countering this narrative is productive to my goal, even if I don't convince bobs_monkey. It doesn't let what is essentially american propaganda go unchallenged for future readers.
You really need to work on your reading comprehension and probably go outside, paranoia is not a healthy way of life.
What did I get wrong exactly?
God I wish I was the person selling you the tinfoil for your hats.
My guy what are you doing in your comment exactly? You're pointing out illegal acts by the government. Do you expect punishment to come soon? Consider how often you've criticized the US, and how often you've been arrested or fined or disappeared for that criticism.
The examples you mentioned aren't the norm -- and that's precisely why we discuss them. If it were the norm we wouldn't pay any attention to them. They're only newsworthy because government suppression of our speech is news. It isn't a common occurrence.
To compare authoritarianism in the US to the rest of the world is absolute peanuts. People constantly complain about the government and make fun of officials. We could insult Trump to our heart's content in 2016-2020, but are you aware of a single Chinese person who joked about Xi being Winnie the Pooh in that time period?
Let's put it this way, if you can complain about how bad your government is without worries of reprisal, your country isn't as bad as you may think.
I just want to say that you are laying out the facts perfectly. Like yeah of course the US has problems, but I can publicly walk around Washington DC saying "Fuck Joe Biden, He looks like an old emaciated Piglet" and have no fear of political retribution.
Freedom of speech is something we still generally have.
Thanks! I appreciate it
Being allowed to complain about your country doesn't make it not authoritarian. What exactly is "free" about being charged with treason over releasing proof your country committed war crimes?
You have no idea whether Chinese people can openly complain about Xi, you are literally just repeating propaganda you heard uncritically. If not, provide a source.
As an American, you have been a victim of our countries propaganda your entire life, even more so since 9/11. Go research literally any bad thing america did in the last 70 years, the hard and fast truth, and look at it as though a country in the middle east had done them. Then compare that to both contemporary and recent coverage of the event, as well as contemporary and recent coverage of a similar event that did happen in the middle east or Russia or China or wherever. Try to explain why the media doesn't care when America does it, but goes ballistic when a socialist country or a country with oil does it.
The part where you leak US intelligence secrets to the world.
Hypothetically, if a German had leaked info about the concentration camps to the press in 1941,that would have been a good thing, right? So why are you presuppossing that it is wrong for an American to leak info about bad shit our country is doing? The reality of what they're doing doesn't need to be as bad as genocide for it to be wrong not to report it.
Concentration camps and espionage methodology are two extremely different things.
What about the evidence of war crimes Chelsea manning leaked? What about the proof that America was illegally spying on its own citizens that Snowden leaked? Calling it "espionage methodology" is a joke. What Manning blew the whistle on was not that dissimilar to concentration camps. You're just using a double standard for the side that you agree with.
I wouldve been fine with Snowden whistleblowing in a different fashion. He opted not to.
What fashion did you want him to use? He went over all of his documents with a NYT journalist before releasing anything. Are you saying that that was too much censure or something? Cause he certainly couldn't have censored it more