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this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2023
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Speaking as an American Jew, Hamas should release the hostages. Until they do, a ceasefire feels impossible.
Hamas doesn't give a fuck about peace, ceasefires, children, or anything else.
That doesn't mean Israel should get carte blanche to do whatever they want. Let's not forget that prominent members of the current Israeli government have expressed very clear genocidal desires of their own.
I think we should just shove both leaders into a submersible
Honestly? Yeah I don't see any way around this than to simply predicate all aid to the region on conditions.
Israel on the demand that not one more brick be laid anywhere outside Israel's borders and a plan with enforcement mechanisms to dismantle the settlements that are there in order to guarantee the possibility of a sustainable Palestinian state with an economy under their own control (I.e that trade, commerce, construction, monetary policy be Palestinian and not imposed by Israel). That reparations be paid to families of the victims of this bombing campaign and settler violence over the years, that those who perpetrated violence be brought to justice.
Palestine on the condition that they renounce the right of return, that they apprehend and surrender all militants to an international tribunal, that they recognize Israel, that they pay reparations to the families of Israelis that have been killed over the years.
Egypt and Jordan on the demand that they participate in the enforcement of the above.
for all parties, that Jerusalem be declared either an international city, or joint capital (split East-West).
that Iran be completely isolated from the region. This is a tough one, they have their fingers deep within Syria, Iraq, Yemen, and Lebanon.
It's unclear how anything else can work.
If this requires a permanent UN military mission with the right to shoot to kill any threat all along the border of both Palestine and Israel, I'm fine with it. If it means Israel bitches and moans about how unfair it is, who cares. It's about time they respected and enforced the law. If it means Palestinians need to fight to dismantle their own militant orgs and fight for peace, at least they will have a light at the end of that tunnel instead of the despair of the past 70 years (and earlier too, tbh).
One wonders why it should be Palestine that gives up this right. Remember, it was Israeli paramilitaries that took over the Palestine Mandate despite (admittedly fucked up) plans by the UN for after British colonial rule left.
Like, your argument is basically fate-acompli. It’s a horribly complicated thing, but unilaterally evicting one party from a homeland isn’t going to lead to peace.
Yeah that's not happening, and it shouldn't.
Israelis will never accept to become a minority. It's as simple as that.
So palistinians should give up on access to their (equally ancient) homeland?
It’s wrong. But a lot of past wrong wars set current borders and taken land. At some point you just need to accept it. Just in the ‘800 Europe was completely different and yet no one cares now (mostly)
The difference between 800s Europe and 1947 Palestine is about 1100 years and the fact that 1947 is still in living memory.
Sorry I meant 1800/1900. It’s living memory yes but people will keep dying otherwise. Don’t get me wrong I hate it. As much as I hate Russia for trying to do something similar in Ukraine
People will keep dying and it will keep being israel's fault. This is the reality do not twist it.
Agree to disagree
“Afrikaners will never accept losing the majority to blacks” - South African apologists in the 1980s.
If your nation depends on apartheid, it must be rebuilt on a foundation of justice.
Yeah, nah.
That option lets Israel get away with everything and punishes everyone else in the region.
Yeah I’m much more in the aid is reduced pending peaceful single state solution with Palestinians and Israelis having equal legal standing and protections
Is it going to be happy? Fuck no. Setting aside grudges and ending feuds is awful and nobody likes it. But hospitals stop being bombed in response which sure is nice.
They can set up grievance courts to deal with the hatred and resentment like Rwanda did.
You know this is a good plan because all the orthodox hardliners on both the Israeli and Palestinian side would hate it.
Beautiful. A dream, but would be great
And i thought my plan of putting both in a room with only water and only release them when there's a peace treaty is brilliant.
Visiting titanic will be nice.
I agree. Both leaders are just way too radical to find a solution.
Hamas should go die in a ditch. Doesn't mean Israel should murder civilians wholesale.
As an american jew, hostages don't justify genocide. Never again means never again.
Yeah the one genocide of Jews that Hamas charter states as their end goal is never justified and whoever does justify it because it aligns with their leftist ideology can die in a ditch like all the terrorists
Why "both are wrong" is such a complicated concept to understand?
Hamas is super wrong to start this ugly war, for keeping civilians hostage.
Israeli army is super wrong for mass shellings and complete disregard for civilian casualties.
Commanders on both sides of the conflict should be brought to justice.
But telling rights from wrongs isn't the top priority right now. Civilians are dying, and this has to be stopped right now. And right now, this is in the hands of Israel.
Are you confusing the end of Israel with the genocide of the Jews?
Genocidal clown is doing it on purpose
States should have consent of the governed. Come and get me.
“No talks until you give up your leverage”
Preconditions for a ceasefire mean you aren’t serious about a ceasefire.
Do you think Hamas cares to “talk” or “negotiate” anything?
why else take hostages and spend resources keeping them alive lol
Maybe they thought they wouldn’t be bombed with hostages 💁♂️
Pretty silly to assume that if Israel bombs refugee camps and hospitals.
Yeah, in fact they’re pretty dumb
I mean yes. Being bombed is usually not a good time.
Do you think they don’t like it? Israel warns when and where they’re bombing by also hijacking palestinians media. Hamas makes it impossible for the civilians to flee. They want them to die so they can blame Israel for the casualties. Israel sucks. Hamas sucks more
Speaking as another American Jew, killing innocent people should not be the response to a hostage situation.
The thing is: Their only leverage is the hostages (which Bibi apparently wants to bomb to death). Without leverage you can't really have negotiations.
Yes, and how do you think they plan on negotiating for said ceasefire?
spoiler
with hostages lolIn return for the thousands of Palestinians imprisoned without trial, right?
Are you saying Israel is justified in killing thousands of children because Hamas has about 100 hostages?
Weird how the Palestinians should always be mad at Hamas for Israel's retaliation, but Israelis shouldn't be mad at their government for Hamas' retaliation.
At this point Israel might have actually killed more Jews in Gaza than Hamas. Hostages too if they don't stop the indiscriminate shelling.
The fire was ceased on October 6th