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Zelensky confirms destruction of major Russian warship
(www.kyivpost.com)
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this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2023
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That's one weird argument. Are you implying that meddling with other state's affairs is justified if it's to keep it from gaining power and influence?
That's one weird argument. Are you implying morality stops at borders?
And it's not even meddling, they are asking for help.
Kind of, yeah. A moral cause in one country can be an evil wrongdoing in other. Case in point - Al-Qaeda was formed because US troops were deployed in some country in the middle east to defend someone.
I'm okay with helping Ukraine. I'm not okay if it's helping only to fuck with Russia.
Uhm, where did you get that from?
Anyway, I get your point, but your example only shows that morality doesn't really stop at borders for most people.
If it's to stop an authoritarian state from taking over a democratic state it's good for me. If it's because of other less ulterior motives (and let's not kid ourselves, it's at least partly because of that), I don't mind. Is it bad when a doctor only saves lives because it pays well?
Actually, I messed up. I thought al-Quaeda was created in response to US's invasion of Iraq, but it was actually formed a couple years earlier in response to Soviet-Afghan war. Still, the point stands as the guys got very offended by western forces presence on what they considered holy land
It would be very bad if the doctor is some kind of pervert who is only treating patients as a cover up for his obsession
The point is, morality doesn't stop, but can be different across (abeit, blurry) cultural, religious, political or ideological lines. The US and allies cross a little more of those than Russia in this conflict, but that's a topic I'd rather not dive into. What I'm arguing here is against Putin's rhetoric which tells that "The only thing the collective west wants is to destroy Russia", so...
I'd advise at least pretending that it's not and it's just being "the good guys". Fuckers like RT, Z-bots and other scum often take such comments and blow them into loudhailers to rally the support for the war. Trust me, "these guys just want to fuck you over" is quite a convincing argument. Besides, there's plenty of other reasons to support Ukraine
Because Russians are highly nationalistic and have an exceptional sense of...exceptionalism. They have a siege mentality that any outsiders are out to get them (they have been invaded multiple times after all), and that a firm hand ruling them is the only one who could save them from external threats. This leads to the ruling class by easily manipulating the public to support them by stoking nationalism. This stoking of nationalism leads to them craving to carve their own sphere of influence, both avoiding and scapegoating the West.
There are couple of comprehensive and well detailed video explanation of the Russian mindset, which I think is a blindspot for Westerners in understanding their worldview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdFtqa54TuM
To summarise the videos in two words, basically say the Russians believe their country is "eternal" and "innocent". This idea stems all the way back from the 19th century with many prominent Russians holding the belief including Leo Tolstoy. This in turn influenced the post-Soviet Russian mindset that is fascistic. Many people cite Dugin as being Putin's influence, as a matter of fact, it was Ivan Ilyich. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Ilyin?wprov=sfla1
Is that the Kraut I think it is? If so, I don't think I have enough salt to take with those.
Anyway, what's your point?
Kraut is a leftist YouTuber, not a politically incorrect username.
You could just, you know, read? Point being, the pro-Russian propaganda sounds "convincing" because the Russians are very nationalistic (and also many are too politically apathetic to protest) bunch to be dissuaded from supporting the war. Additionally, many ordinary Russians benefited from the war financially. Here's another video also putting the war into perspective for many: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebS9h_QSrbI
I mean whether that's the "Kraut & Tea" guy. Just looked up - it is. You might want to google on that, too.
Did you? I'm saying "don't give food to propaganda" and you go on rambling about Russian mindset and how nationalistic they are. Even if true (not really), what does it have to do with the argument? The reason "they are out to get ya" is convincing has absolutely nothing to do with nationality or mindset. If someone comes to you with a recording of your neighbor planning on killing you, you will trust that person more than the neighbor, simple as that.
You're on about why the pro-Russian camp sounds "convincing". It is not for others, it's for the Russians.
Except there is no recording of the neighbour wanting to kill me, you or the Russians. It is mere fabrication that the West wants to destroy Russia and paranoia on the latter's part. And what Russia has done is invading your neighbours' home out of paranoia believing it will secure you. The West had made many overtures and concessions to assure Russian insecurity. Putin accused the West of expanding NATO to include Ukraine. And yet, despite what happened, Ukraine was not promised that they will be allowed to join. The West knows Ukraine is the thin line for Russia and do not want to further escalate than it already has. Declassified British government files from 2000s revealed the Blair government is fully aware of this and they're reluctant to promote Ukraine's membership to the EU; believing the country is in the realm of Russia. The West was also friendly with Putin at the time which added to it.
Like the last video I linked, not understanding the Russian mindset is the blindspot for outsiders and we would do better to do otherwise. Russian imperialism is basically stemming feeling insecure. It's nationalism at the heart of it. Aside from that, nationalism is a tool to control the population. It is not a coincidence that Putin's main rival, Alexey Navalny, was convicted on the day after the Russian invasion of Ukraine while the public is distracted from the news of the conflict.
Russian's current behaviour and national exceptionalism is combination of all these.
Well the comments above say otherwise. The top comment was talking about "not letting authoritarian state gain more power and influence", with which I took issue with, and a few comments down the line that state that it's okay to fuck with Russia. By that same argument, Russia (and quite a few other countries) are completely justified in fucking with you, too. What I'm saying all along is to drop this argument, because the only thing it does is it enables this exact justification and fuels the war.
Russia is authoritarian and imperialistic, because they think history and the outside world have wronged them, and centuries of top down rule ingrained to them that an iron fisted rule will save them and bring glory. They don't need to justify their behaviour to others, they only need to justify it to themselves by fabricating fake outside threats that others are out to get them. Nothing about what I said is contradictory.
That's one weird argument to say that supporting a defender, unprovoked, from an aggressor is "meddling". It's meddling for your side, amirite?
The reason I'm said this because it sounds like "preventing Russia from prospering is a good cause", as if we're still at cold war or something. Probably not what you've meant, just pointing at possible confusion in interpretation. Helping a little guy, sure, but helping only to fuck the big guy is what Putin was rambling about in his justifications about war.
Lol, nowhere between the lines does my comment alludes to "preventing Russia to prosper". Russia is already prosperous if they want to without having to invade Ukraine. Corruption prevents them from being so.
Helping other democracies defeat authoritarian invaders is absolutely worth fucking all of the invaders "affairs"
Try with different X and Y. See where it gets you.