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History repeats itself
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this post was submitted on 05 Dec 2023
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not just plastic bottles / containers,
we literally have teflon cookware
Teflon cookware is mostly a non-issue during cooking because PTFE starts melting only at temperatures largely higher than cooking temperatures.
The problem is when it gets discarded and incinerated and it emits residues, and during its fabrication.
The problem is when the surface gets damaged, which is always. Just throw away all of your Teflon and use cast iron pans. They're almost as easy to clean, and they don't have the same health risks. Sure, DuPont claims their new Teflon is safe, but they're the same company that knowingly lied about their first Teflon, fought in court about it for 30 years, and even bribed health authorities.
I feel like people that recommend cast iron as an alternative are misunderstanding the entire reason Teflon became popular in the first place. I ain't got time to learn a secret ritual dance of how to season My Pan. That being said, I just use stainless steel and I've learned how to use it properly so that it doesn't just stick to everything.
As long as you properly preheat your stainless steel you will have little issue with sticking, there's a neat little trick someone taught me splash some water on your pan if it stays in place and Bubbles it's not ready yet but if it starts dancing around the pan you can use it and it won't stick
LOL. It can seem daunting at first, but it's really quite simple. Once a pan is seasoned then just using it with oil, cleaning it with water, and drying it properly keeps it going strong for years. We clean ours with water and a scrub brush, dry it, put it on the burner on medium heat to evaporate any remaining water, and then spread a little oil around the pan with a napkin. Then I turn the burner off and let it sit there until it cools. The oil continues curing while the pan stays hot and maintains the seasoning layer. The whole process only takes a couple of minutes. We do have stainless pans too, but we usually reach for the cast iron or carbon steel pans, unless we're boiling water, or making tomato based sauces.
There's no actual need to season a cast iron if you don't want to. Regular use of it will cause it to become seasoned over time. It just means everything will stick to it until such a time as the season takes.
Or at first just use more oil
Cast iron isn't completely without risk. The iron from the pan can leach into food which can be a problem for people with high iron issues. On the flip side people with anemia could see some benefit. My personal favorite as someone with hemachromatosis is enameled cast iron.
A properly seasoned cast iron pan has a layer in-between the food and iron. But those layers do get damaged & worn, and you can definitely end up with your food in contact with the iron like you said. I have an enameled dutch oven, and it's pretty great, but not as easy to clean as the regular cast iron, and definitely not non-stick.
The seasoning layer prevents massive amounts of iron from leeching but seasoned pans still add iron.
Medical journals all say you get significant iron from seasoned cast iron.
The only source that doesn't agree is America's test kitchen. They say "only a few mg" which would still be a significant percentage of dietary requirements.
Unless you have a medical problem, this is a good thing.
Yeah, we've been using cast iron pans since we saw the movie Deep Waters about the DuPont conspiracy several years ago. I just donated blood a couple of weeks ago and they test your iron before you can donate. My iron levels were perfectly normal. So whatever it does, it's totally fine.
Or try carbon steel pans. Very similar to cast iron, but much lighter.
We have a 13" carbon steel pan. It is usually my go-to pan. They're a lot pricier though, which is why I usually just recommend cast iron. People usually need to be pretty invested in their kitchen to consider carbon steel pans. My cast iron pans were like $10 each. My carbon steel pan was $75. They were half that price a couple of years ago, but they really bumped up the price after America's Test Kitchen released a review about them.
I just have regular stainless steel.
Pour water and soap in it when you're done cooking and it's easy to clean by the time you're done eating.
You also don't have to worry about messing up a coating.
What do you mean?
When the Teflon gets scratched then it starts leeching toxins into your food.
Where did you read this? What I've read has said the opposite. Here's one result for "teflon flakes"
https://missouripoisoncenter.org/is-this-a-poison/teflon
I highly suggest watching the movie Dark Waters starring Mark Ruffalo. It covers the true story about a 30 year legal battle to hold DuPont liable for knowingly poisoning their factory workers and 99% of all life on planet earth with PFAS. After losing that court battle they stopped selling their original Teflon pans and started selling a new formulation which they claim is safe. But this is the same company that knowingly sold poison for half a century, bribed government regulatory officers to lie, bought politicians, and buried massive amounts of evidence against them. It's your choice if you believe them or not.
I just really wanted to a source for your claim that scratching the surface causes it to "leech toxins into your body".
No way it doesn't degrade and emit PFAS occasionally during normal use. There's a reason nobody who keeps birds will keep that shit in their house.
The risk:reward ratio is so skewed it's stupid.
Risk: if you heat it slightly too much a class of chemicals literally called "forever chemicals" because of how long they stay in the body will enter your lungs and your food
Reward: food no sticky
For those of us that have no clue what this quote it about, what is the reason that nobody with a bird will have teflon in their house at the same time?
Sorry, I forget not everyone else is a bird person. Teflon is notorious for making pet birds drop dead without warning during normal use. It's very 'canary in the coal mine.'
Wow, that's nuts. I did not know that. It really makes it sound like teflon is terrible for us.
Sad fact: During the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, the the US command at the front lines had a pigeon in a cage with them at all times. If the pigeon were to die, that would mean that there was a gas attack and troops needed to don their gas masks.
Why is it that birds in particular are so sensitive to aerial pollutants (is that the right term)?
They have a higher rate of respiratory exchange than large mammals like humans, which means any harmful stuff in the air gets into their system faster.
Interesting! Thanks for letting me know.
the "teflon fumes" for lack of a better term are extremely toxic to birds
to pick a nit and to highlight the other-than-poisoning-you aspect: they're forever chemicals because they don't break down naturally anywhere, not just your body. Wait...an idea: throw those pans into a volcano!
Ever seen a well used Teflon pan that wasn’t scratched or chipped? All of that goes into your food.
OK but PTFE itself is not carcinogenic or harmful from what I remember. Only when it starts deteriorating at high temperatures does it release harmful components. So eating your Teflon pan isn't supposed to be that bad.
https://www.cancercenter.com/community/blog/2021/09/does-teflon-cause-cancer
It’s not known to be harmful or carcinogenic. Doesn’t mean it isn’t. It’s hard to identify correlation between exposure and harm for something that we’re nearly all exposed to especially if the level of harm is low.
Companies have also been known to harass and silence researchers who show their products are harmful. I don’t see a reason to trust that PTFE is safe to eat when I have the option to just not eat it.
Sure but you can apply this logic to anything: copper, cast iron, enamel, nickel used for stainless steel... Where do you stop?
Copper and iron are essential elements in human biology. Enamel coatings need to be thrown out once they start chipping. Nickel isn’t great but in my experience stainless steel pans barely shed any material after years of use.
I stop at manufactured polymers. Particularly when they’re used in applications where they fall apart into our food and the environment where they’re going to last millions of years.
Fair enough!
327°C
Teflon-coated pans start giving off harmful gasses at around 400°F, temperatures you're going to exceed on the stovetop if you're doing pretty much anything other than boiling water.
If you had a source for that, I'd be glad to read it and take it into account next time this topic is raised!
How hot is 400 slavery units?
It's just above 200°C, so It's easily reachable with a regular cooktop.
My current research is about pfas and how bad it is. You wanna know yhe most fun part? It probably is in your drinking water. Current testing methods are only for specific compounds and many manufacturers just use a slightly different chemical structure, whose effects can be the same in a biological system...
Can you share the negative health effects of ptfe consumption? I would have assumed that it would be inert in humans considering it's extraordinarily inert properties. Obviously it breaks down at temperatures over 315c, but that's not really relevant with ptfe in the water.
It doesn't seem to be the PTFE themselves, it's the molecules released when it eventually degrades due to fire, time or mechanical force; particularly PFOAs, which were at one point so widely used you can now find them everywhere. As well, they are still used to manufacture non-stick pans, just at an earlier step in the process so they are still present, but at 'safe' levels; however, if a non-stick pan is overheated, the coating almost instantly breaks down and releases unsafe levels of PFOA after that event.
Purchasing non-stick cookware is supporting companies that create, ship, and use PFOA which further degrades the environment and contaminates water.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluoroalkyl_carboxylic_acids
Schlummer, M., Sölch, C., Meisel, T., Still, M., Gruber, L., & Wolz, G. (2015). Emission of perfluoroalkyl carboxylic acids (PFCA) from heated surfaces made of polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) applied in food contact materials and consumer products. Chemosphere, 129, 46-53. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chemosphere.2014.11.036
My research is currently with pfoa and its ability to interfere with ttr proteins ability to transport t4 and t3. If you need a source just google pfoa calux.
Thanks for your work. (☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞