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this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2023
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Both Russia and the elected government of Gaza (Hamas) target civilians intentionally. Hamas even targets Gaza hospitals. Probably thought false flagging Israel would be great PR, and it did work well on the worldnews crew.
I'd say Gazas elected government, and Russia are much closer.
Demographic from Wikipedia:
0–14 years: 44.1% 15–24 years: 21.3% 25–54 years: 28.5% 55–64 years: 3.5% 65 years and over: 2.6%
something like 75% of all Gazans were either not born or not of voting age when the last elections were held 16 years ago.
Goddamned time traveling Palestinians!
As though this changes the fact that they're the officially elected government in Gaza and that 57% support them from the latest polling?
Weird perspective.
damn, imagine you need to justify killing brown people so hard you would use Assad support numbers.
Fun fact, there can be no accurate survey of opinion in a region controlled by a group that kills you for having the wrong one
Fun fact, when the actual facts and empirical data don't support your false narrative, you claim facts don't matter and that there's no such thing as facts.
LOL, I also understand a false character attack, like accusing someone of supporting the killing of PoC, when your argument is factually bankrupt and poorly reasoned. Makes sense, and it suits you.
I DO support killing all members of Hamas because they're terrorists and intentionally target civilians and have always done so. Nice try on the libel, though.
ok, for the eternally slow, there can be no accurate political polling done in an authoritarian regime, it's like going around and asking people in Nazi Germany if they support the Nazis, what are you going to do say no and get put into the camps?
and how is "Hamas" defined? to kill all members of Hamas you need to kill every single Palestinian to be sure
Anyone harping on how Hamas is the "elected" government when they haven't had elections in, what, 16 years, is just simping for Netanyahu's genocide. I see you felt the need to say "elected" twice just to be really obvious about it.
It's important to counter these false narratives being thrown about that they're not the official elected government with, to this day, majority support amongst residents.
Lmfaoooo you're a complete troll. "It's important to counter false narratives" when every narrative you provide is clearly false.
You are qutie clearly intentionally inciting people, and it isn't really working in your favour here.
Trying to inject reason and facts into this proHamas circle jerk isn't trolling. But I can see how facts that conflict with false narratives could incite the guilty individuals.
It's not antisemitic to be anti Isreali government. Especially when they have been actively doing terrible things for years. Like targeting journalists
Absolutely, fuck Bibi and fuck Likud. And before October, there are a slew of war crimes they should be tired for at the ICC.
No one here is pro-Hamas.
You are pro-terrorism, so long as the terrorists are on "your team".
Exactly what I'm trying to tell you. Stop being pro-terrorist. It's awful.
I'm not. I'm against all terrorism.
You are advocating in support of the IDF, even when they commit terrorist acts. You make excuses for the terrorist actions, bringing in other terrorist actions, as if one form of terrorism is justified in response to the other.
and the IDF targets civilians even when they aren't "at war", your point being?
Israel targets civilians. The vast majority of buildings targeted by Israel since 7 Oct have been "power targets", which, by their own definition, are targets that do not have significant military value but have value in that they can destablise civilian life such that the civilians might put pressure on the government to change.
Israel are literally using violence against civilians to achieve a political goal. That is the very definition of terrorism.
No one can argue that the events of 7 October were not terrorism. Roughly 2,000 people invaded Israel to commit terrorist acts. In response, Israel have committed their own form of terrorism and killed 20,000 people, very few of which were actually members of Hamas.
Your argument is a near perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.
Israel is using violence against Hamas. Whos goal is to maximize civilian casualties in the hopes of sparking a wider war and gaining more allies than just Quatar, Iran, Hezbolla, Houthis, Iraq, etc...
They want another coordinated Arab state attack, just like the multiple ones that have failed in the past. Over and over, the Arab states have tried to destroy Israel. Hamas is quite clear they will only rest once Israel is destroyed and the Jews killed.
Israel has been forced by Hamas to fight in the densest urban theater immaginable, again, because Hamas wants to maximize Palestian deaths for PR.
Hamas strips protected targets of their legal status by co-locating. This is by intent.l and designed to spark the kind of outrage you see here among posts falling prey to this tactic and supporting terrorists.
I'm not sure what you want Israel to do? Ignore the attack? That hasn't worked for all rockets that have been launched at civilians in Israel. It hasn't worked for all Hamas's suicide bombers ans bus bombings, etc. It arguably encouraged the October attack by allowing them safe haven over and over. I'm curious what they should do instead?
Hamas could end the violence that's killing Palestinians today. Easily. Just stop hiding behind them and surrender. But considering they have 57% support among Gaza residents, and the PR is being effective (just look around worldnews), why would they?
I want Israel to wield their power and superiority in such a way that takes the moral high ground.
Hamas invaded Israel and killed civilians and ransacked their homes.
Israel invaded Gaza, bombing the city and killing civilians before ransacking their (vacant) homes.
Military action should be focused on military objectives. Neither side is doing that, thus both sides should be derided for their actions in this regard. They behave differently, but both share strikingly similar flaws.
Israel are far more capable at ending things right now than Hamas. If Hamas surrendered, Israel could easily come up with some other excuse to keep pressing. If Israel stopped, Hamas would not be in a position to perform another 7 Oct attack. Israel are not defending, they are very clearly on the offensive.
At the end of the day, the real goal here is to expend ordinance and buy more, thus financing the weapons industry. An end won't happen until profit targets are met (assuming the goals don't just get stretched further).
I'm still waiting to hear what you think they should do?
That sounds nice, but there's nothing specific or actionable. It amounts to telling them to "buck up camper" or "just take it on the chin."
Thr military targets operate in civilian places intentionally. Hamas wants as many dead Palestinians as possible.
I'm not trolling, I genuinely reflect on this a lot and wonder myself what other course they have. They've tried ignoring the terroist attacks for ages. Or just some tiny response that does nothing to disrupt Hamas's ability to project terror and war crimes.
If Hamas did and Israel kept going, then they absolutely would be guilty of warcrimes and worse. Without Hamas, there they have no legal basis for the war, and most of their targets would revert to protected status.
I'd be with you shouting for prosecution if that happened. But I definitely disagree with you that that is how it would play out. There is not a lot of point in debating a hypothetical, though.
Ok, to be specific, I would like Israel to focus on military objectives only. Right now, they are deviating far beyond that and extending their rules of engagement, far beyond anything reasonable.
I would also like it if Hamas focused on military objectives. Attacking a music festival with a peace motif is heinous, particularly when it is down the road from a military base.
The Geneva convention already provides scope for dealing with bad actors who use civilian infrastructure for military purposes. Israel exploits this and attacks civilian infrastructure directly, using this exemption as an excuse without proving their postition is valid.
Meanwhile, Hamas completely ignores everything and also attacks civilians directly.
The methods are different, but the end result is the same.
Oh, please tell me what you think of IDF killing their own:
In an environment where that's the standard tactic of Hamas, hide behind civilians, yeah, I understand the friendly fire. This is Hamas. They blew up their own hospital, hoping ppl like worldnews would blame Israel for it... and they did.
If you think that while hiding amongst civilians or while keeping hostages they aren't trained to try and appear like innocents, then I don't know how to help you. It's literally their main tactic.
wow, we are getting into these conspiracy theories, ya? well I'll tell you that the IDF killed those 1300 Israelis.
now for some real info: Netanyahu supported Hamas to stay in power by targeting their opposition, there would be no Hamas if not for the Ethnostate government in Israel right now.
You joke, but I've seen sick people make that claim that the IDF killed all the victims. It's as palatable as Alex Jones mocking the dead children.
Now for some real info:
Perez was winning and going to beat Bibi, publicly proclaiming that he will still pursue a two state solution with Arafat. Polls also showed strong national public support for a two state solution.
Hamas couldn't have that, so right before the election, they executed a series of suicide bombings and bus bombings killing many civilians (which they always target). Immediately after that, Bibi won by less than a percent. Bibi paid them back by helping them get rid of Arafat, who still (publicly at least) claimed to want a two state solution.
Bibi and Hamas have been working together tightly and deeply ever since. They are the same people. If love to see Bibi tried for war crimes and many other Likud members.
All of this is fact, go do the reading if you don't believe it. Hamas made Bibi.
Ok now I'm drinking your Kool-Aid. However, the one caveat I would make is that it isn't really "Hamas" here, it's Iran, encouraging Hamas. Suffice it to say, there's lots of political puppetry going on in this region.
The vast majority of Palestinians weren't alive for the last Yom Kippur war - 50 years ago to the day of the 7 October holiday. Bibi was alive. It stands to reason that most Palestinians don't even know what happened back then, let alone remembering it, but Bibi absolutely should have expected something on such a key anniversary. Instead, beforehand Bibi stirred shit with all the IDF troops, left weak border security on the day with clear single points of failure, then claimed ignorance when everything hit the fan.
However, him directing war crimes does not absolve the Israel troops who are actually committing war crimes. Both should be punished.
All pre-october apartheid war crimes absolutely. They don't change bc of October and the collective punishment of civilians war crimes and more need to be held ICC.
But post October and until Hamas is gone, I think proving war crimes would be exceptionally difficult. Because of how they operate and their provable intent to cause as many casualties as possible, it makes it difficult to argue protected status for most targets right now.
100% with you, this isn't just Hamas, it's Iran, Quatar, Iraq, Hezbollah (not all of Lebanon), Houthis (not all of Yemen), and on and on. Pretending this is just Hamas is a bad call for sure. Most here do it here for ignorance or to feed an intentional false narrative about an underdog.
See I think the key point is that you assume at least half of all Gazans are guilty alongside Hamas because >50% of people in Gaza supported Hamas in the 2007 elections. Even assuming similar proportions now, I would argue that a large number of that supporting group are only the victims of propaganda, rather than organically and sincerely taking that position.
There were more than 2 million people in the Gaza strip, of which only 50,000 were members of Hamas. The rest are civilians, people who on one side face repression from Israelis and on the other face Hamas telling them they can make things better.
First, I definitely think you are right that they're victims of propaganda. And then I ask myself, would that knowledge have me feel less recriminations to someone in the Klan who bought into their propaganda and lynched a man? And the answer, for me personally, is no.
No, I'm responding to the recent poll, the current best data we have.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/palestinian-poll-finds-strong-support-for-hamas-oct-7-attacks-river-to-the-sea-state/ar-AA1k6mEx
Lots of sources have reported on it. If you don't like that one you can find mNy more.
That's where you draw a fictional strawman, one that isn't you, and claim that you would be far more righteous and not fall for it.
It's strange how you would refer to a recent poll, promoted by the IDF but yet fundamentally queried by Palestinian government, yet at the same time the IDF completely disregards (and yet doesn't offer its own number) for the casualty numbers provided by Palestine. It reeks of cherry picking the numbers that suit your argument.
Israel have, so far, killed more than 10x the number of people Hamas did in one day. When is enough, enough?
How many Palestinian civilians need to die before Israel is satisfied?
Let me try and clarify, this was an independent poll conducted by the Arab World for Research and Development. An independent Arab polling organization. It wasn't conducted by Hamas or the IDF or the PA, etc.
And as I've said many times, I don't evaluate a conflict by whether one side has more casualties. The corollary is that the conflict would be more acceptable if more people died on the other side. Knowing that's false let's us know that the logic attempted has derailed. It's simply ethically and morally bankrupt.
I also understand using a debate tactic to attack the data when it's saying something that's not compatible / supportive of the narrative one is pushing.
I'm happy to look at a different recent poll, or look at a source of yours why this isn't the most recent and best numbers we have. I would love it if support for Hamas wasn't so high and would be really pleased if the October attack was condemned and not celebrated.
You still have avoided answering my key questions.
Israel refute the Gaza deathtoll lfrom Palestinian sources as false. However, Israel do not publish their own numbers to support their objections.
How many civilians are acceptable casualties in Gaza, as far as the IDF are concerned??
The IDF have been tacitly reluctant in answering this question.
Their avoidance here us only just shy of accountability for their actions, if it even meets that bar.
The first one, what's the question?
I'm sure any sane person would answer no civilians casualties are acceptable. Which one of many reasons why Hamas must be eradicated, co-locating to intentionally cause the death of civilians. It's why what Hamas is doing by co-locating is one of the worst war crimes.
As for reluctance, I think it's about everyone knows that nobody except Hamas wants civilian casualties. Look even here on worldnews how successful they've been with that propaganda.
And that doesn't even mention the regular attacks by Iraq, Houthis, Syrians, etc on US troops and civilian shipping lanes.
My questions were pretty clear:
Israel want to "eradicate" Hamas, but haven't really defined that objective. It's a very vague objective, and one that cannot foreseeably be attained. As such it raises the very valid question of how many civilians they consider as acceptable collateral damage to achieve that objective.
Based on their general public statements, it seems like that number is unforgiveably high.
nah, Hamas only took the opportunity they had been waiting on, Bibi had to redeploy the IDF from the Gaza border in order to help pogrom the West bank animals
Hamas took the opportunity of striking on the 50th anniversary of the last Yom Kippur war, and Bibi had no way of seeing that coming?
According to Israeli intelligence, he did
According to the IDF, Hamas did not fire a rocket on the hospital. They attributed that to the Islamist Jihadist group - a separate organisation.
Meanwhile, all the "tunnel networks" under Al Shifa hospital, that Israel touted as proof of Hamas using hospitals for military purposes, were in fact basement operating rooms that Israeli contractors built in the 1980's, and so far have not been shown to be connected to any military tunnels.