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this post was submitted on 24 Dec 2023
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If you ever start thinking your life is miserable, think about people living in Gaza. It’s truly unfair that they have to live these lives...
On one hand, they have to deal with Hamas - atrocious terrorists who turned Gaza into the one of the most impoverished regions in the world. They stole everything they could and even behave terribly towards the citizens.
And on the other hand, they have IDF here which don't care very much about their lives and caused quite a lot of damage, as well. Add to that Israel's current right wing government and situation cannot be worse.
Oh surely you think it cannot be worse? It still can. Pretty much no one from Gaza can leave to another country because no other country will accept Gazans. Maybe because for the last 18 years they have been indoctrinated into thinking that killing a Jewish is the most saint action you can do.
Truer words man.... Palestinians have it rough. Honestly I can't see it improving under Hamas in any scenario. Keeping them poor and in pain keeps Hamas in power.
Perhaps when Israel take control they'll do the smart thing and pump some money into the region...it'd be a hard sell for any government though after Oct 7.
They will pump money into it but I am afraid it can end just like west bank did.
Why are Hamas “atrocious terrorists” but Israel “don’t care very much”?
Pretty sure they’re both terrorists, and add committing genocide onto the Israeli side.
Hamas has genocide as its openly, publicly stated goal.
No they don’t. They once had it in their charter in the 80s but updated it; and have called for a two state solution for nearly 20 years now. They even took the step of recognizing Israel, only for Netanyahu to move the goalposts. Meanwhile Netanyahu and the Likud party have genocide as their openly, publicly stated goal of destroying the nation of Palestine.
When did they recognize Israel? They've offered it as part of negotiations but so has Israel offered Palestinian Starbucks as party of negotiations. Each side included unacceptable inclusions to the other.
This may not seem like it but it is definitely a perfect example of a skewed and one sided narrative that this site is exposed to all the time.
https://theintercept.com/2023/11/28/israel-palestine-history-peace/
So, your argument is that an agreement by the prior state that was since rejected by the current one is the fault of the current administration which was elected in reaction to the failure of the prior Palestinian state and decent into terrorism invalidates all the reasons to terrorism coming out of the current Palestinian state? If that sounds confusing it's because it is and it's missing several hundred tit for tats that built up to the worst terrorist attack Israel has ever experienced. Reacting solely to that is also ignoring how things were progressively getting worse since the initial election of Hamas.
The real issue is that the bias in the article you posted is self evident. It eliminates literally all the context around those decisions and includes only those decisions. A list of all the times that any Palestinian authority rejected the peace process without context would be just as biased but you won't find one outside of official Israeli channels.
No, my argument is that Israel has been in complete control of the Occupied Palestinian Territories since 1967, after the ethnic cleansing of 1948 and brutal military law enacted on the Palestinians since. Early Zionists like Ben Guerion and later the State of Israel have always coveted the whole land of Palestine and only wielded peace process as ways to further land grab. Not too dissimilar to what America did to the Native Americans.
I've read a lot of other sources, this article is just pretty on-topic for the history of the 'peace process'
If you want to learn more from both official Israeli documents, accounts from Israeli military officials, Arab sources, and also oral history to get a more complete picture than just info from official Israeli channels try these books by Ilan Pappe. Try your local library or library Genesis for a copy.
Books
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories. London: Oneworld Publications. 2017. ISBN 978-1-85168-587-5. Archived from the original on 14 October 2023.
Ten Myths About Israel. New York: Verso. 2017. ISBN 9781786630193
https://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (London and New York: Oneworld, 2006). ISBN 1-85168-467-0
A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples (Cambridge University Press, 2004), ISBN 0-521-55632-5
1948, a conflict started by Palistinian attacks on Jews that escalated to five nations invading Israel after they determined that the situation has escalated enough to require their own sovereignty. Sure, you aren't leaving any information out. None at all.
Yeah, you're leaving a lot out. See my previous comment for resources to learn more
I'm leaving out a lot but yours are intentionally misleading. Mine is showing the other side and without the accusations of a one sided god complex focused on Israel operating in a vacuum.
You even missed the context in your response to me claiming that I'm the one leaving things out as if you have not already provided the actions that you are criticizing Israel for.
You are a perfect propaganda spokesperson.
"On 31 August 1947, UNSCOP presented its recommendations to the UN General Assembly. Three of its members were allowed to put forward an alternative recommendation. The majority report advocated the partition of Palestine into two states, with an economic union. The designated Jewish state was to have most of the coastal area, western Galilee, and the Negev, and the rest was to become the Palestinian state. The minority report proposed a unitary state in Palestine based on the principle of democracy. It took considerable American Jewish lobbying and American diplomatic pressure, as well as a powerful speech by the Russian ambassador to the UN, to gain the necessary two-thirds majority in the Assembly for partition. Even though hardly any Palestinian or Arab diplomat made an effort to promote the alternative scheme, it won an equal number of supporters and detractors, showing that a considerable number of member states realized that imposing partition amounted to supporting one side and opposing the other.
The next day brought the fi rst outburst of intra-communal violence, activated by hot-headed youth on both sides. It was less spontaneous than it seemed to outside observers. A month earlier, Israel Galilli, the chief of staf f of the military force, had ordered the concentration of troops in the north and south of Palestine. These forces were ready to respond by force to angry and violent demonstrations, and were attacked by the shabab, the local Arab youth.
A slow deterioration into a widespread civil war in the next few months generated second thoughts in the UN, and in Washington, about the desirability, indeed, the feasibility, of the partition plan. But it was too late for a large number of Palestinians, evicted from their houses after their leaders lost the early battles with the Jewish forces. Twelve days after the adoption of the UN resolution, the expulsion of Palestinians began. A month later, the fi rst Palestinian village was wiped out by Jewish retaliation to a Palestinian attack on convoys and Jewish settlements. This action was transformed into an ethnic cleansing operation in March, which resulted in the loss to Palestine of much of its indigenous population."
https://imeu.org/article/plan-dalet
Here's a good list of quotes by prominent early Zionists about transfer and the results of The Ethic Cleansing campaign Plan Dalet. To learn more read or find an audiobook for The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe
Are you just a bot that counters any argument with the piecemeal tailored history ignoring any Palestinian wrongdoing? I'm going to do a test. Six day war, United States, Russia.
Dude, read a book. That was page 184
I dare you to go read their current charter. Not the one from the 80s.
Do you want the section where they declare their dedication to violence? Or perhaps the section where they use "from the river to the sea" as an explicit call for genocide?
The charter was toned down. Instead of saying they want to kill all Jews, now they only want to kill all the Jews living in Israel.
But their leaders say it best: we will repeat October 7th until Israel is destroyed.
How about this section?
I'm sorry that you're so down with colonialism that resistance groups fighting against oppression make you so uncomfortable. You're whining about "Hamas calling for the genocide of Jews" yet you're watching the supposed "Jewish homeland" (read: Jewish ethnostate) commit genocide on the people of Gaza. This to me says that you care only about Jewish life and very little or not at all about Palestinian life. You're a racist, as all true Zionists are.
Calling for Israel to be destroyed is not antisemititic, it’s antizionist.
And honestly a fair call.
To be 100% clear: are you saying that it's a fair call that they are separate concepts, or are you saying it's a fair call that Israel should be destroyed?
Both.
Where as Israel has genocide as its less loudly stated but vastly more achievable goal.
So at least they are honest about it.
Correction: Israel turned Gaza into one of the most impoverished regions in the world.
No, it was Hamas. I know you would love to blame Israel for everything but this was mostly Hamas's work.
Why would I blame Hamas for something that happened 3 months before they were even elected?
What are you referring to?
The blockade that put Gaza in this state started 3 months before Hamas was elected. From that point there's not much a local government can do. Gaza simply doesn't have the land or resources to live independent of the rest of the world.
Gaza doesn't have the resources? Throughout last 18 years, billions were put into Gaza and Israel even allowed it. Shared net worth of Hamas leaders is around 11 billion. They have the resources, they just use it for building bombs and tunnels. They could have built second Dubai with that money...
The security measures by Israel are actually fully valid. Imagine your neighbor builds bombs they plan to shoot at you. Would you just chill and allow items from which your neighbor can build bombs go in?
Do you understand the meaning of a blockade? Money is meaningless if you can't use it to buy things.
Israel is explicitly and intentionally keeping the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse, by their own words. This is a humanitarian disaster before you even get into the specifics of how they've rejected peace over the years.
This theory falls apart immediately when you realize the money is being spent in Gaza on tunnels and on bombs. If truly everything was blocked as you say, they wouldn't have the tunnels and the bombs.
Not everything is blocked. But enough is blocked that people simply can't have a decent life. This is also part of why they have the tunnels; there's simply no way to live with what little Israel allows (remember when they calculated the calories necessary so Gazans don't starve to death, and found they're letting in less than that?). It simply happens to be that bombs can still be made using things they do allow.
Again, Israel has specifically stated they're intentionally keeping the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse.
That doesn't make sense. Once they have enough money to build bombs and vast networks of underground tunnels, it’s definitely Hamas's decision. Instead of building shelters and farms they decided to use the money for tunnels and bombs. If I have 100k dollars and decide to buy a luxury SUV and then I starve, it’s not a fault of my neighbor that I did so.
Furthermore, Izrael does not even have a full control of Gaza. They left the place in 2005 and Gaza has a border with Egypt. So even if Israel decided that nothing can get to gaza, stuff can arrive in via Egypt and Israel would not be able to do anything.
I can only assume you're being willfully obtuse, so I'll end the conversation with this.
The Israeli blockade limits quantities of things allowed to enter Gaza, but it also limits the kinds of things allowed to enter Gaza? No matter how much money you have Israel won't allow you to get a car into Gaza, for instance.
If it was just a problem of money Gaza wouldn't be in this state, because Gaza isn't naturally one of the most impoverished regions in the world. They had an actual economy before 2005 when Israel just cut off all their exports. Stop treating the Israeli blockade as a natural disaster.
The siege has led to shortages of basic items such as food and fuel. It has also stymied Gaza’s potential for long-term economic development. Chronic problems, such as access to education, healthcare and clean water, have become more pronounced.
Since the beginning of the siege, Israel has launched four protracted military assaults on Gaza: in 2008, 2012, 2014 and 2021. Each of these attacks has exacerbated Gaza’s already dire situation. Thousands of Palestinians have been killed, including many children, and tens of thousands of homes, schools and office buildings have been destroyed.
Rebuilding has been next to impossible because the siege prevents construction materials, such as steel and cement, from reaching Gaza.
Over the years, Israeli missile attacks and ground incursions have also damaged Gaza’s pipelines and sewage treatment infrastructure. As a result, sewage often seeps into drinking water, which has resulted in a sharp increase in waterborne disease.
More than 95 percent of Gaza’s water has been rendered unsafe for drinking, according to the UN.
Plans to improve Gaza’s water quality have been thwarted by the ongoing power crisis. Water projects are among the largest consumers of electricity. Without enough power to maintain existing water and sanitation systems, it is impossible to build new ones.
Many homes in Gaza rely on electric pumps to push water to the top of the building. No electricity for them means no water.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/14/a-guide-to-the-gaza-strip
That was all before Oct 7th
First of all, AlJazeera is one of the worst sources, you can list. They usually just share only one side of the story. In addition, they even failed to call Hamas a terrorist organisation, so they are pretty much irrelevant. In the times of war, both sides are trying to share only those pieces of information which suit their goal. So generally try to avoid getting information from one-sided sources such as AlJazeera, IDF, Daily Wire, etc.
Second of all, all those 4 escalations you stated were started by Hamas. You know, history repeats itself and in this conflict it is especially true. Pretty much all escalations have the same pattern: Palestine (in our case Hamas) (in the past also all Arab countries) attack Israel, Israel usually responds with very disproportionate force and then Palestine cries that Israel is bad to them. Then we have peace for some time and again.
Let's now focus onto Gaza: Of course that Israel's responses badly damage Gaza but at the same time Hamas does not care. Instead of building something for civilians, they just care about underground tunnels and bombs, so they can launch another attack in 2-3 years. Then Israel responds and we have another catastrophe. Hamas has money for building bombs and underground networks but suddenly, when they should use money for something useful, they have no money at all.
Issues with drinking water and electricity are absolutely logical because Gaza relies on Israel (with which they are in war btw) in terms of these supplies. I think I do not have to explain why this is a terrible idea. For example, instead of building bombs and underground tunnels, Hamas can put money into research, so they can have desalination plants just like Israel has.
But yes, for civilians who have nothing to do with the leadership of any of the 2 countries, it is terrible there and I truly regret everyone who has to exist there. However, the solution is not as easy because none of the 2 sides will stop bombing each other.
First of all, AlJazeera is one of the worst sources, you can list. They usually just share only one side of the story. In addition, they even failed to call Hamas a terrorist organisation, so they are pretty much irrelevant. In the times of war, both sides are trying to share only those pieces of information which suit their goal. So generally try to avoid getting information from one-sided sources such as AlJazeera, IDF, Daily Wire, etc.
Second of all, all those 4 escalations you stated were started by Hamas. You know, history repeats itself and in this conflict it is especially true. Pretty much all escalations have the same pattern: Palestine (in our case Hamas) (in the past also all Arab countries) attack Israel, Israel usually responds with very disproportionate force and then Palestine cries that Israel is bad to them. Then we have peace for some time and again.
Let's now focus onto Gaza: Of course that Israel's responses badly damage Gaza but at the same time Hamas does not care. Instead of building something for civilians, they just care about underground tunnels and bombs, so they can launch another attack in 2-3 years. Then Israel responds and we have another catastrophe. Hamas has money for building bombs and underground networks but suddenly, when they should use money for something useful, they have no money at all.
Issues with drinking water and electricity are absolutely logical because Gaza relies on Israel (with which they are in war btw) in terms of these supplies. I think I do not have to explain why this is a terrible idea. For example, instead of building bombs and underground tunnels, Hamas can put money into research, so they can have desalination plants just like Israel has.
But yes, for civilians who have nothing to do with the leadership of any of the 2 countries, it is terrible there and I truly regret everyone who has to exist there. However, the solution is not as easy because none of the 2 sides will stop bombing each other.