112
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 16 Jan 2024
112 points (90.0% liked)
Ask Lemmy
27253 readers
2282 users here now
A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions
Rules: (interactive)
1) Be nice and; have fun
Doxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them
2) All posts must end with a '?'
This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?
3) No spam
Please do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.
4) NSFW is okay, within reason
Just remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either !asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world or !asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com.
NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].
5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions.
If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.
6) No US Politics.
Please don't post about current US Politics. If you need to do this, try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world or !askusa@discuss.online
Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.
Partnered Communities:
Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
L E G A L I Z E
Cartels gone overnight. Handle addiction as a medical problem. With legal MDMA, mushrooms, weed and acid, the hard stuff isn't going to be anywhere near as big an issue as it is currently.
This is true to a certain degree, but the cartel's way out of the bag on this one. They don't just produce/traffic substances, they're firmly entrenched and armed to the teeth. They are not going anywhere, even if you take one of their major cash cows away - they'd just pivot to something else.
Now, getting MDMA and psychedelics into a therapy setting is something I hope happens very soon, ideally long before anything is fully legalized as I imagine that will be a long time.
I know some people in that industry though in Europe. Legalisation is like game over for them. They move on to other countries.
Seriously what do you imagine they will pivot to that will have even a fraction of the income?
Human trafficking, illegal gambling, protection rackets, prostitution, etc. All of those are "markets" they are already involved in.
Sure. Grimy stuff. But nothing makes money like drugs (maybe gambling). Legalisation would begin their slide down. Legalise prostitution and gambling too like they have in Oz. Makes it safer for all and effectively removes the black market.
I swear it is as simple as 1+1=2. You're right, this is literally all they would have to do and the cartel would be stuck with Avocadoes and shit. It's fucking wild dude they would rather it be this way than to legalize drugs and prostitution. However given how the US government has admitted to giving weapons to mexican cartels and the CIA has also admitted to doing secret experiments on US citizens with illegal drugs (and prostitutes were involved too!) And there is some serious evidence that we trafficked crack cocaine into the us during the Reagan years (no open admission on that one AFAIK) I would say it isnt really about trying to solve a problem for the US government, it's about creating one. A rather profitable one at that. Human beings will never, ever, EVER stop doing drugs or wanting to have sex. Doesnt matter how much religion you throw at it or how hard you put the boot down on someones face or how many years you imprison them or even if you straight up murder them (looking at you Singapore!) People will absolutely never quit doing those things. Drug use has been documented from some of the first humans to ever document anything and will never go away. Many different animals can be observed using intoxicating substances around them. Unfortunately, I don't think the mindless battle against these things will ever stop either. Quick edit but can you imagine how few rapes their would be if they legalized prostituiton? Can you imagine how fewer deaths their would be if the drug market were regulated and their was zero chance of Fentanyl being in it? They would rather see all of us die before they even considered doing it though.
Avocado!
It'll be like after prohibition. They will diminish over time, but it will take time. They won't throw their hands up and say "gosh golly guess we're all done here". They will still try the black market, there's already reports they're protection racketing legal producers, producing other stuff legal or not but by unsavory means, etc. We should do it but it will take decades for the cartels to diminish.
Maybe in Mexico sure but if the market were regulated and controlled here there would be zero chance that the cartels would be racketeering the legal producers. If they could do that here theyd be doing it already with Oxycontin and Adderall producers. When's the last time you saw mexican brick weed around? Was it a decade or so ago when they legalized all the weed in US states? Imagine that.
They don't need to do it with oxycotin or Adderall right now because there is cocaine, meth, still weed, etc. Take it all away and they will do what they need to to survive.
They probably dont even sell their weed in the usa anymore you would be stupid to do that you can just buy it at significantly higher quality in most states and then even if you are in an illegsl state theres still "THCa" flower. They have to sell that shit somewhere else now. And no, they do make fake pills now laced with meth and fentanyl and they kill millions of people. Theres an approximately zero chance that they would ever be able to control legitimate manufacturers in the united states. If they could do that they wouldnt be pushing bullshit pills that kill off most of their customer base. If you legalize and regulate the drug industry suddenly there is no more cocaine and meth and ecstasy because just like regulsting the weed market did it would take the money for the united states market out of their hands they would have to focus on other cpuntries that would also rather deal with criminals rather than regulate and control these things that people will never, ever stop doing completely.
I don't know if they sell their weed, but they don't need to because they have other things they can sell. That's the whole point. Take it all away (see the word all) and they will do what they need to to survive. They're not going to simply give up on a wealthy market of 350 million people.
Control? It's not going to be 100% control but that won't stop them from trying protection racketeering or other things. It will be a fight and they will only go down swinging.
You seem to think in very binary terms of yes or no and can't see the mess or shades of gray, so cheers.
Because I already see the mess and shades of gray that prohibition has caused. It didnt work well for alcohol either and now its what like 60 to 70 years later and wow, no criminal mobs or cartels control the market just rich folks. Also saying "well theyre just gonna do other stuff!!" Isnt making anything I say about regulating drugs and prostitution false.
That doesn't stop the cartels, not by a long shot. Ending prohibition in the US didn't eliminate the organized crime families in the US, it just moved them to different areas of corruption. If it's not alcohol, it's drugs. If it's not drugs, then it's gambling, tax evasion, prostitution, loan sharking, organized theft, and so on and so forth. And without correcting the underlying issues driving alcoholism and drug addiction in the US--particularly poverty--complete decriminalization would lead to huge problems. Has led to huge problems in some cities.
While decriminalizing drugs would help to a degree, you need to correct the underlying problems that have allowed cartels to amass so much power in the first place, like weak governments, lack of opportunities, and high rates of poverty.
Dude it's 90% of their income - of course it will hit them. They won't disappear but believe me legalisation is the biggest thing they fear.
All I can do is point to how much power the mob amassed in the US during prohibition, and how long they held that power after prohibition ended. Sure, their revenue took a hit, but they moved fairly smoothly into other areas, and corrupted other power structures in order to build and maintain illicit revenue streams. It wasn't until the 80s and 90s that the mob families in NYC really saw significant consequences.
As an example? Mozarella cheese on pizza. That was fully controlled by the mob for a long time.
Who cares man? Gambling, prostitution, cheese, trash? Those are legit businesses.
As long they're out of the murder and dismemberment game that's the win right?
Gambling should never be considered a legit business. IMO casinos et al. should be shut down, for the same reason that payday lenders should be beaten to death in the streets: they're fundamentally predatory businesses.
The problem with prostitution and organized crime is that it's not victimless once the mob gets involved. "Bitch better have my money" is a threat; you pay the pimp, or you get beaten, and possibly killed. You want to hire an independent escort? I'm fine with that. But significant amounts of prostitution involve sex trafficking, esp. "agencies" that constantly advertise "new girls".
All of the businesses that the mob--or any organized criminal gang--is in end up increasing costs due to corruption, and involve the threat of violence if anyone disrupts their money. People that try to compete in sectors controlled by criminal groups tend to end up dead very, very quickly, regardless of what the nature of the business is.
"Prohibition…goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes." - Abraham Lincoln
I get that you personally might have moral issues with gambling etc. but making something illegal doesn't stop it, it just pushes control into the hands of criminals. Want to give me a single instance where prohibition has ever worked?
If you want to stop cartels legalisation is literally the only path.
That's... Not a good argument. Child pornography and prostitution is illegal because it's morally reprehensible, and incredibly, profoundly harmful to children. Same with murder, robbery, theft, etc. By definition, anything that is illegal is going to be done--or controlled--only by people that are criminals.
Does prohibition stop those things entirely? No, of course it doesn't. But it gives society tools to fight against them in a way that decriminalizing does not.
Prohibition doesn't give society tools, it removes them.
Take prostitution. Legalisation immediately leads to registration of hookers (blocking most human trafficking), gives oversight to inspectors, forces safety standards, allows for checks on welfare etc.. It also removes criminals from the chain, pimps, violence, drugs etc.. If you do a little research on this you'll see it's the better option. If you are a moral person your imperative should be on keeping all parties safe. And you have to realise prohibition never stops it.
Legalization of prostitution is a problem by itself, because the regulatory costs end up being borne by the sex workers (more on that in a tic). For prostitutes that are working at a subsistence level or only doing sex work occasionally as a stop-gap--which is the majority of voluntary prostitution--that's not going to work. And what do you do, for instance, when a registered sex worker suddenly tests positive for HIV, or hepatitis C? Revoke their license, and then...? Legalizing doesn't eliminate trafficking, it just pushes the prices for trafficked prostitutes down, because trafficked prostitutes are slaves.
There are definitely harm-reduction models that can, and do, work for sex work, but legalization and regulation--when that regulatory costs are paid by either the sex worker or the customer--will not work the way you think for harm reduction. For the system to work as intended, you would also need things like national single-payer healthcare (...that isn't constantly getting funding slashed by conservatives), and licensing that was both on-demand and free to the licensee, and you would need something to deal with the loss of income if they contracted an incurable STI. (Otherwise they would continue working, which would be a public health risk.) Inspections, compliance measures, et al. could not be a cost borne by the sew worker/clients or else you'd see non-compliance with regulatory measures. Most sex-worker advocates call for decriminalization rather than legalization/regulation because that's the model that moves the most risk away from the sex worker, but you do need to also balance the needs of the worker against the the needs of society to a degree.
You seem to be using the cost of regulation as an excuse against decriminalisation or legalisation of prostitution which i find wild.
Firstly a slightly higher cost to cover overhead would be fine for most johns if they didn't have to risk jail I'd imagine. I'm also sceptical that would even be needed. My understanding is currently in the US pimps take the majority of what sex workers earn.
Remember theres also tax revenue generated here so that would easily cover any government oversight...or does in other countries.
Also take into account that cost of not regulating is far far far higher. It's like the cost of homelessness - it costs massive amounts to a community oddly! The medical, policing, social services etc etc not to mention cost in terms of violence from criminal behaviour, drug addiction etc etc.. At the end of the day it bringing people into society is a far better option for all.