660
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 31 Jan 2024
660 points (96.7% liked)
politics
19104 readers
1971 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Eh that's like asking "Are you Pro Israel or Pro Hamas, you only get to pick one"
It's really not, though. I am anti-Hamas and anti-Israeli government. I am pro-civilian - a group comprised mostly of Palestinians and Israelis in your thought experiment.
You see, neither Hamas nor the Israeli government have their people's interest in mind. However, you can't really cherry pick aspects of Fascism and anti-Fascism and say, "sEe? BoTh SiDeS!"
Nope. Israeli citizens are not all bombing Palestinians, and Palestinians are not all Hamas.
You're so close to getting it
Are you saying antifa is equivalent to Hamas?
If the question is whether you're pro/neutral/anti fascism, I think being anti-fascist is the only reasonable answer personally.
Anti-fascism is a political movement with a lot of political theory. Its not the same thing as saying you're against fascism.
Wrong.
What?
That's exactly what it is.
No it's not It only is to people on the right who want that to be the case, The only theory that goes into play into being anti-fascist is thinking fascism is bad.
No.
No, it is not. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume ignorance instead of malice. What you're saying is literally verbatim right wing propaganda.
The only thing "anti-fascism" or even "antifa" means is "against fascism". That's it.
What's the opposite of fascism?
While I've seen many binary choice questions that are loaded questions, I think the above is a good example. A follow up (or two) if the person balks at the question itself is the following:
Do you know what fascism is and how to spot it?
Do you think antifa is a single entity and not a general ideology?
If it's an entity, can you name or even lookup it's leadership?
Do you believe everyone who espouses an anti fascist value system is a member of that org?
Good binary questions can help guide a discussion and expose biases and misunderstandings held by each side in the discussion. Seemingly paradoxically, nailing down specific stances using those types of questions, you can explore the nuance of certain positions.
Ex: on abortion
Question 1 may just be a way to reframe the stances from "pro-life" / "anti-life"
Q2 helps bring the reality of what enforcement of that person's stance may entail.
Q3 shows that big companies go unpunished for the same (or worse) violations of restrictive abortion laws and other laws that are used to punish women who miscarry.
Q4 helps bring focus on the fact that anti-abortion laws that are currently being passed and enforced are written so poorly that they are forcing doctors (through threat of imprisonment) to deny what would be routine procedures which would otherwise prevent suffering and permanent injury to women.
These are all excellent questions to lead into a good discussion. Assuming you have someone who is open to approaching in good faith and who trusts you to do the same. I have a friend who I try to have similar dialogs with.
I don't suppose you have looked at street epistemology. Sort of the same vibe of exploring beliefs in a less/not confrontational way.
Just an anecdote about this: I once asked a pro-lifer question 4a and their response was that there's no such thing as an ectopic pregnancy (said it was made up nonsense/propaganda) 🤷
At that point I stopped viewing them as a rational being... Forever (I still know them). Now when I think about them... "were they like this from birth or did some combination of events lead to this insanity?" And sometimes even, "should they be committed? There is definitely something wrong with this person."
Then I remember that a great many humans have been like this for thousands of years. Rational thought and critical thinking are probably the outliers in our evolution and maybe rather than trying to somehow teach everyone how to research things and examine evidence properly we should instead focus on taking away sources of misinformation (by force, if necessary).
I'm in favor of the corporate death penalty for any media company that is caught intentionally lying or misleading their audience. For example, the day Fox News admitted under oath that they intentionally lied to and misled their audience should have resulted in that entire organization being shuttered forever.
"But that would eventually take down many news organizations!" To that I say, "yep." Let new ones into the market that can keep their shit together and tell the truth.
Then the question could have simply have been phrased as "are you for pr against fascism." Everyone know that Anti Fascism is a political ideology that goes beyond just simply being against fascism. And that's why people don't want to identify with that term
yeah if i was sitting in gaza. which were not.
i dont think its crazy to expect the electorate to know the definition of fascism. its also a bit hyperbolic to compare full on genocide with electing a fascist.
Did you fall asleep in history class or something? How do you think genocides happen?
Tbf, particular nations elect fascists, said nations commit genocide.
What I'm saying is that if you are asking a question that pigeonholes people into two categories sometimes they pick the worst one out of spite. It's not really am indicator of what that person believes. Kinda like saying if you don't support BLM you're a racist, and guess what happened? A bunch of people started saying "well I guess I'm a racist now"
No it's not the same. A better equivalent would be are you racist or anti-racist. Are you pro or anti rape. Are you pro or anti slavery.
Facism is defined as a violently oppressive form of government. It shouldn't be a hard question if you're not a piece of shit
If you read Ibram X Kendi's treatise on anti-racism you'd know that example is not helping your argument
They were always racists. They just decided it was okay to admit it.
“Whoopsie I got caught guess I’ll quit hiding it.”
The reason I brought up the Palestine Israel example was because it was a real question in a survey (NYT I think?), more that 50% of the people under 30 responded they support Hamas and under 20 years old it was as high as 70%. By your logic, all of these people are terrorist, and always have been.
Please show how that is my logic. Do those people all call themselves racists?
No, they call themselves pro Hamas. At least in that survey, but I doubt they actually believe it, more likely they picked that answered because they were pigeonholed.
What does that have to do with your spurious claim that people call themselves racists out of spite and not because they're racists?
What at all does that have to do with being a fascist or an anti-fascist? A shitty survey asking people which of two awful groups of people they prefer is not at all the same as asking what one's opinion on fascism is.
Fascism is very clearly defined. There is no pigeonholing here, there is no third option being left off the table like there was in that survey. You're either in favor of fascism, actively by supporting it or passively by not resisting it, or you are anti-fascist and resisting the rise of fascism to the best of your abilities. There is no in-between.
BLM is a specific organization. Fascism is an ideology. It's more like saying if you're not for civil rights you're a racist.
But really, you're spending a lot of time and energy trying to explain why you're, at best, neutral on fascism.
No, I'm spending energy trying to explain to an echo chamber that forcing people to take binary extreme positions forces neutral people to take extreme positions. It's a matter of politics and getting policy passed, if you call a neutral person a fascist, the will not vote with you. Calling people names is not a way to get their support. I can tell that people really have not learned anything these past 8 years. A lot of Trump support in 2016 came from exactly this type of rhetorical mechanisms. You want to keep on going this way? Go ahead, but you will not get the support you need, but at the end of the day you can just say those people were fascists and racists anyways, right? Extremely convenient
You think being against fascism is extreme? That should be a baseline position.
And I'm not going to coddle Trump supporters just because they act like contrarian children when they get called out.
If some anonymous nobody on the Internet is making you support Trump or embrace hate because they said something you didn't like or called you a mean name and you want to pwn them, you were just looking for a reason to support it anyway and need to grow the fuck up.
You and I both know that the term "Anti-fascist" carries a lot more meaning than simply being against fascism. If you were to frame the question "Are you for or against fascism" you'd probably would get a more accurate answer
So now you're going to argue linguistics as a reason to not come out against fascism? That's really just supporting my stance of "grow the fuck up already."
If they pick fascist 'to spite' me they're very clearly in that camp. Not because the question was asked but because of their intent in answering.
"they were forced" lmao what a gaggle of shit
the two are not logically exclusive. a correct comparison is
"are you Pro-Isreal, or Anti-Israel" and "are you Pro-Hamas or Anti-Hamas".
You are also so close to getting it.
And you, clearly, are in another postal code entirely.
"are you a fascist or are you an anti-fascist?" is exclusionary, you can only be one. You cant both be fascist and anti-fascist, nor can it be 1 and not 1, they are logically exclusionary.
"is the number of gumballs odd, or not odd" "you are so close to getting it" "yea... that's not an answer"
""Are you Pro Israel or Pro Hamas" is not, and proposing that as an example shows a complete lack of understanding on basic syllogism.
NVM, just saw you said this multiple times to everyone who raised a point you cant refute.
Worst made up genocidal criminal thieving country
Easy choice.