850
There was still a choice
(sh.itjust.works)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 04 Feb 2024
850 points (98.3% liked)
memes
10206 readers
2739 users here now
Community rules
1. Be civil
No trolling, bigotry or other insulting / annoying behaviour
2. No politics
This is non-politics community. For political memes please go to !politicalmemes@lemmy.world
3. No recent reposts
Check for reposts when posting a meme, you can only repost after 1 month
4. No bots
No bots without the express approval of the mods or the admins
5. No Spam/Ads
No advertisements or spam. This is an instance rule and the only way to live.
Sister communities
- !tenforward@lemmy.world : Star Trek memes, chat and shitposts
- !lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world : Lemmy Shitposts, anything and everything goes.
- !linuxmemes@lemmy.world : Linux themed memes
- !comicstrips@lemmy.world : for those who love comic stories.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
I thought this was an interesting topic of one of the episodes of chef's table (netflix docuseries). The chef focused on what real "american" cuisine looks like, and since cuisine typically comes out of hardship, American food doesn't have as distinct of an identity since the USA has typically been a country of "plenty." Was really a fascinating point, and it made me look at food culture in a very different way
I dunno man, the Pretzel Bun wasn't really popularized until after Millenials couldn't afford houses
Lol fair. Though I don't mean to suggest that there is no hardship anywhere in the US (i think that's why chicken wings became popular), but across the board, food has historically been more easily accessible in the US than most nations than pre existed it. Sure there are some regional delicacies, but no true US cuisine. I'm sure that could be partially explained by the geographic size as well, but there are some distinct differences in UK cuisine even though those cultures are significantly closer.
The US is too big to have a unified cuisine. The UK is hard to compare to because even their accents vary much more across a small geographic area, their cultural regions are strictly divided and enforced thanks to deeply entrenched classism and social pressure.
Also I just flat disagree that cuisines like Cajun/Creole or Tex Mex or Southwest/Santa Fe don't qualify as true US cuisines.
I think they would identify as more as their own regional cuisine, as opposed to being a part of some larger US identity. I think this would be similar to understanding of french or italian cuisine, but then if you dig into specific regions you'll get "tuscan" as opposed to prototypical "italian." That nuance for "US cuisine" is not as well defined because it doesn't exist in the same way, even though regional cuisines are totally distinct in their own way.
I used the UK as an example because they have distinct regional cuisines like Cornish, Welsh, Scottish, Yorkshire, etc, even though it is geographically quite small. To me, that defies the logic that the US can't have a more distinct food identity but then also coexist with various subcultures across a larger geographic area.
That's the point, the US is geography about the same size as mainland Europe, and only about 80mill less people. Would you criticize Europe for not having a unified food culture across the entire continent? How about North Africa? No, that would be ridiculous. It's the same for the US, you'll find some similarities but even with the same food there will be differences and some places where you shouldn't buy that food.
For instance, California has great Mexican food and especially street tacos. But you'll find it hard to locate really good pizza. Florida is technically in the south, but there's not a lot of good Mexican around, but fresh seafood is really nice. NY has some specialties but is probably the best place in the entire world for culinary diversity and quality. There are more immigrant populations there demanding quality food representation than anywhere else in the world. Even relatively sparse locations like small Midwest towns will typically have an okay pizza place, a good Chinese place, and a great Mexican restaurant. That's way more than most countries can say.
US food culture is far more than what you see on TV
I don't think i made my point clearly enough. I get that there are regionally distinct cuisines such as cajun cuisine, but my point was that this occurs even in smaller countries and locations such as the UK, which has numerous culinarily distinct cultures despite being a fraction of the size of the US. I'm not sure why you're completely ignoring my point there. I'm also not sure how highlighting Americanized versions of other cuisines is relevant at all. I understand that other cuisines coexist inside of the US, but they are not actually US cuisines. Are you suggesting that Mexican food existing in California or the midwest is one possible definition of US cuisine? Because this actually feeds into the point that American cuisine doesn't really have its own distinction.
I'll try using Germany as an example. German food has an identity, wurst, schnitzel, etc. sometimes it's borrowed (wiener schnitzel from vienna), sometimes its distinctly German. But Germany also has various regions with their own distinctive cuisines (former independent states like bavaria, swabia, franconia, hesse, etc each with their own cuisine). This would be like cajun is in the US. On top of that, there's plenty of transplant cuisines, such as Turkish doner which is quite popular. This would be like mexican food in California. Yet, german cuisine is still able to stand out as its own thing.
I also completely disagree, North African cuisine as an example absolutely has some level of shared culture. Sure, Morocco and Libya have different cuisines for example, but they sit on the southern Mediterranean and share spices, vegetables, etc, and have a shared history.
I understand that I'm not a food expert and I'm citing a documentary about food experts that was interesting. I'm not certain why this feels like an attack. Additionally, that doesn't mean it's my only source of information.
Everything comes from somewhere else. Beans, corn, peppers, potatoes, squash, and tomatoes all came from the Americas. So any culinary traditions using those ingredients only goes back at maximum early 1700s, but more like early 1800s. They pale in comparison to the many centuries of history they have on this side of the ocean. Native people have been nixtamalizing corn for longer than anyone has been speaking French.
The UK has distinct food culture, that's not at issue. But you can trace it to the density of people and length of time inhabited. But if you look at specific regions of the US, you can see similar. Take a similar size area. Like the northeastern seaboard from Boston to north Carolina, that's a HUGE amount of regional food differences. Beans, soups, seafood, sandwiches, barbecue, fried chicken, breakfasts, desserts, slaws and salads. And that's not even mentioning the alcohol traditions. Scotch wouldn't exist without used American white oak bourbon barrels.
But yes, I am making the argument that both Mexican and Chinese food in the USA are separate and culinarily distinct things than what you find in their home countries. They've been in this country for well over 100 years; living, evolving, changing the attitudes and palates of Americans the whole time. You won't find most US Chinese dishes anywhere in China, and you won't find a dish that looks like US Mexican or TexMex in Mexico, even if it's got the same name. But they will be regionally different. They're influenced by each other, but they're separate.
More than that, I'll give you three foods that evolved from elsewhere but finalized in the US, and three honest foods that are 100% from the USA, showing off deep food culture. First for the evolved dishes that now are around the world. Hot dogs, hamburgers, and fries. They all had precursors, but the combination of German/Belgian food, French baking, and food science with industrialization to make for a cheap food that is tasty and easy to eat? Purely American. And now exported worldwide.
Next are the cultural dishes. First is chili. Every state has some version, some variety. With or without beans, different protein, brown or white, and different spices. But it's a dish that comes from hard work, long hours, and wanting a filling meal that's easy to make but well spiced. No bean soup quite hits the same highs, it's almost more of a stew. Then you have biscuits and gravy. It originally came from the Revolutionary War, but today it's best recognized as southern love on a plate, and and just as many calories. People from the UK often confuse US biscuits for scones, but they're not. Scones have egg, and usually sugar in the dough, and get worked 2-3x as much as a biscuit, which is crispy on the outside but inside is airy, light, fluffy, and savory. Goes well with the rich, creamy, peppery sausage gravy. Last is barbecue. That's got 5 legitimate culinary traditional regions and probably like 4 more that could argue for another. But it comes from poverty and slavery, when people couldn't get good cuts of meat and had to invent methods to make them good. Then they combined that with Afrocaribbean flavors and local ingredients, and you have a unique tradition that is probably some of the best open heat cooked meat in the world.
After all this, I'm really not some sort of American chauvinist. Honestly I prefer pasta, ramen, and some African foods most of the time. But everywhere I see this lie that the USA has no food culture and it drives me wild. It's a rich and diverse food culture, but just very different than the media says and very different than the rest of the world, and especially Europe. So it can sometimes be hard to understand. Hopefully this helps.
Yeah man i don't think you're following me at all. I'll give my bottom line up front: I'm not criticizing food culture in the US, I'm retelling the perspective about American food identity that was reflected in the docuseries. I agree that there is a wide diversity of good food in the US. That's not the discussion here.
I'm completely aware that foreign cuisine in the USA is culinarily distinct from their home countries. Legitimate Chinese restaurants don't serve general tsos chicken, and legitimate Mexican restaurants don't serve tex mex.
But they're also not identifiably "American cuisine." Your additional point doesn't seem relevant. New imported items? So like how tomatoes are ubiquitous in italian cuisine but come from the new world? I'm not sure what the messaging is here.
I understand there are regional differences. Not arguing that point either. It's also not MY point at all, i was, again, retelling the point in the episode of the documentary chef's table that i found very interesting. Besides, most regional differences are a specific dish (philly cheese steak, chicago style pizza, etc). Those aren't entire cuisines, they're a single dish. I don't think chili in and of itself defines an entire culinary experience, even though various regions of the US are extremely particular about what even constitutes chili.
Speaking of regional differences, look at india for an example. It's 1/3 the size of the US, but has multiple identifiable regional cuisines, while also having an overall "indian" cuisine. Goa in particular has a pretty distinct cuisine compared to northern India. But we're not discussing chinese food or Mexican food in india, because that's not really relevant.
Respectfully, i believe i understand your point, but you're not understanding mine. I like to think that i understand food culture better than the credit you're giving me. I am in no way suggesting that the US has no food culture. I'm trying to state that the documentary episode made has a chef who shared the perspective that there's no such thing as authentic "American" cuisine.
Hope you have a great day.
That sounds really interesting, you've made me curious about this topic now; I'm not a documentary kind of person, but I'm probably going to read about it later.
I typically don't watch documentaries, and I watched the entire series. It's pretty well done!
Each episode follows one world renowned chef and their personal history, their food journey, their take on food in general, and where they are now. The first episode was an Italian chef who tried to bring home cooking to restaurants in Italy and was met with backlash by the community (you can't monetize Mom's home cooking). The second one was about a highly regarded chef who moved to Argentina to cook for a remote village and that's pretty much it (as far as i recall) because it was way less stressful cooking a whole pig underground than running a 3 Michelin star French restaurant.
Fascinating stuff.
A lot of south Louisiana food is a reflection of this.
I think it's more that the US is a very recent country and was a melding of many cultures, plus the sheer size of the country and diversity of the ingredients found around the country.
Yeah that's fair, but in some ways other young countries have their own distinctive cuisines that are popular, such as Mexico and Peru. Additionally, i don't think the blend of other cultures is really the problem in having an identity. Other countries have plenty of immigrant populations, but they still have their own identity. For example, turkish doner is huge in Germany, but German cuisine is very much its own thing. Then you can even dial it in even further, looking at bavarian, franconian, swabian, etc.
I agree that any one of those points alone doesn't make for a particularly distinct cuisine, but combining them leads to a lot of diverse sub customers. I think the size point is the biggest one though. It's hard to compare us cuisine to a single country since the US is so big that different regions create their own sub cuisines. As far as the sub cuisines go, I do think there are distinct cuisines, like you have various bun based sandwiches like burgers, hotdogs, and subs, there's also casseroles, roasts, and southern food is its own distinct cuisine.
Right, but that was the point of the episode of the documentary. At a basic level, American cuisine is based on plentiful food sources, and we get things like burgers and hotdogs. I recommend watching it, it was quite interesting. I'm not trying to suggest that this is the only explanation, but it was an interesting theory nonetheless.
Sure, some regions have some variety (as you mention, a casserole). Size is a factor, but similarly maybe countries have some form of culinary identity (russian, chinese, brazilian). They have sub cultures as well. I'm not well versed in them, to be honest, but i know they exist.
It was an interesting point that i found to be somewhat profound especially as i explored other cuisines, which are typically developed during hardship.
Watch "High on the Hog."