My understanding is that that's pop history and that the ancient Greeks were very, extremely, violently homophobic. MLM sex was about the worst thing you could do and if you got caught you'd be publicly shamed for the rest of your life if not outright killed.

This post calling Alexander the Great gay is questionable too but eh.

[-] Philosoraptor@hexbear.net 23 points 9 months ago

It varied hugely by city-state, but most were at least pretty OK with pederasty. A young boy having a sexual relationship with an adult man was seen as a pretty normal part of most educational/mentorship relationships. In the city-states where it was more frowned on, it was the "receiver" role that tended to be stigmatized, rather than the relationship as a whole. Hence all the references to eunuchs here: since they didn't have to worry about being emasculated, it tended to be a lot more acceptable. Adult men who preferred to bottom were definitely stigmatized in a lot of places, though.

[-] WaterBowlSlime@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 9 months ago

Correct me if I'm wrong but pederasty wasn't supposed to be sexual. It was a mentorship-like relationship between an educated man and a young boy where the man taught the boy like a son. Sex in this relationship was condemned as much as modern pedophile teachers would be.

Also, saying that ancient Greeks were gay because some men molested their students is... not the argument people think it is.

[-] ilyenkov@hexbear.net 8 points 9 months ago

Correct me if I'm wrong but pederasty wasn't supposed to be sexual

You're wrong, sex in the relationship was absolutely not condemned, it was very typical and expected. It is very well attested and this isn't a controversial or conjectured position.

I agree that ancient Greece is not a good example of a society with chill views on sexuality, but there's no reason to deny reality.

[-] Barabas@hexbear.net 7 points 9 months ago

We also have examples of adult to adult homosexuality like the sacred band of Thebes, where it wasn’t just accepted but required. So it was a mixed bag.

[-] WaterBowlSlime@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 9 months ago

It wasn't condemned, really? I'd like a source on that please. From what I've read, sexual pederasty was considered an obscene transgression. The relationship was not meant to be sexual though child abuse did happen.

Is that really so hard to believe? I mean, ancient Greek society thought little of women and thought even less of men "who took on the women's role" so why would Greek parents send off their boys to be violated? The Greeks also greatly valued sexual temperance and monogamy so I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want men acting like satyrs with their sons.

[-] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 4 points 9 months ago

Probably need more reading on this, pederasty feels like it would have been pretty common

[-] WaterBowlSlime@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 9 months ago

It's agony trying to find sources that are specific and contemporary. Aristotle mentioned pederasty in the Nicomachean Ethics saying that it's a morbid state of character that arises from men who are either naturally brutish or who were abused as children.

...and others are morbid states (C) resulting from custom, e.g. the habit of plucking out the hair or of gnawing the nails, or even coals or earth, and in addition to these paederasty; for these arise in some by nature and in others, as in those who have been the victims of lust from childhood, from habit.

Source

[-] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 2 points 9 months ago

What about the greeks virulently hating homosexuality?

[-] WaterBowlSlime@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 9 months ago

You know what, I can't find any contemporary sources that hate on gay men directly and I'm getting tired of reading this junk so I'll leave it at "just trust me bro".

I will say that they saw marriage as between a man and a woman for the purpose of breeding good citizens for the state. People who wouldn't pair up and reproduce were punished socially and maybe even legally. So you can imagine what the Greeks thought of gay people (how many ancient gay spouses can you name?)

...Then let us now proceed to marriage, and teach persons in what way they shall beget children, threatening them, if they disobey, with the terrors of the law.

Cle. What do you mean?

Ath. The bride and bridegroom should consider that they are to produce for the state the best and fairest specimens of children which they can.

Source

[-] keepcarrot@hexbear.net 2 points 9 months ago

That's fine, it's not super important. I'm glad modern nationalism has the same root cause for hating gay people.

[-] WaterBowlSlime@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 9 months ago

Ya it's refreshing how candid they were, even. Modern nationalists bend over backwards to make it seem like what they're doing is deeper than what it is but ancient Greeks would stare straight into the camera and say "I command you to breed"