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Estonia considers closing its border with Russia
(kyivindependent.com)
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this post was submitted on 14 Feb 2024
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Estonia is a tiny country of a little over a million people and we already took on the most Ukrainian refugees per population and we currently have issues housing them. If Russians need refuge in another country they need to look elsewhere.
Why can't Estonia send them elsewhere in the EU?
EU rules
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation
Any law that prohibits people that are fleeing a war from entering a country is a pro-war inhumane law that shouldn't exist. It is only moral to break any law that stops you from saving someone's life. A lot of people like to imagine that during ethnic cleansing in their countries they would be heroes that shelter people in secret, but it is obvious that even people who consider themselves left-wing, value law (the will of the state) more than human life.
I'm just explaining, not defending the regulation. If you ask me, all borders are tools of oppression. The goal should be to have a world where anyone is free to go where they please and build a life where they want to be. I know there are problems with that, but let's at least agree that prohibiting people from moving to greener pastures is an imperfect solution that could be resolved without the violence inherent in borders as movement barriers (rather than borders delineating jurisdiction, which is fine)
I agree. Thank you then for your explaining. Sorry for misinterpreting your comment.
Then HELP them get to another country in stead of forcing them to stay in Russia where they might be forcibly enlisted or killed for opposing the war or just generally living in misery caused by the war as well as reactions to it.
If they are trying to cross the border here they would need to cross about 4 countries before getting anywhere where they can be accepted, Estonia does not have the resources to facilitate that.
There are also security concerns. In the early 2000nds Russia attempted to create a breakaway region in Estonia with an influx of Russian citizens. Viru county already has a high Russian population and we don't need a repeat of that.
If my country was at war, I would rather cross 4 countries then die in a war. It makes no sense to not give them a choice, claiming that you care too much about them to let them be inconvineced by the act of saving their lives.
And of course there are always security concerns when we are trying to help people save their lives. What about security concerns of Russians that are trying to flee? Are Estonian lives more valuable then Russian lives? Is it safer for everyone to forcefully keep as many people in region of war as possible? To let them forcfuly become soliders that will shoot at other people and arm people they are attacking so that someone has to die. Is it better to let all Russian citizens become soliders and either kill Ukranian soliders or die themselves in a war, then risk to let unarmed people in another country, because some of them, somehow, could be the bad guys, simply because they are from Russia. As if they are more likely to be dangeous than people from any other country.
A country will always prioritise its own citizens and help others only if there are resources available. I also absolutely expect citizens to flee from a country at war and I definitely expect countries to close their borders if they can't handle the influx of refugees.
There is definitely xenophobia towards Russians as well (700 years of slavery does that) and Estonia definitely will prioritise helping Ukrainian refugees but that doesn't change how limited the resources are currently now.
That makes no sense. If you let people in and give them your citiznship then they are your citizens as well. It is nationalism, ethinic background, not some organisational problem of a country. Estonia can easly handle the influx, that is the point, it is ridiculous to claim otherwise and it is highly immoral and racist to prioritize people of one nationality over other. Resources are fine, it is one of the richest countries in the World. It is dishonest and maniplative when all right-wing policies (such as this) talk about lack of resources when we are talking about helping the working class, but when you need to give tax cuts to the rich or spend money on military, then all of a sudden money flows.
Estonia is a tiny country of a little over a million people, the poorest state in the US is richer... I have no idea where you are getting that Estonia is wealthy.
Then let them pass through to the rest of the EU. In Europe there is a billion people. As for the wealth, I have no idea why you are comparing it to US. We are talking about whether they should be forced to stay in Russia and it is clear that per capita Estonia is richer then Russia.
There is no quarantee the next country over wants to let them through and if Estonia starts funneling people into other EU countries without permission Estonia would lose open borders to the rest of EU and any financial aid pretty much instantly which would hurt the people already here massively.
Yes, Estonia is richer by gdp than one of the most sanctioned countries running on a war economy. Not rich enough to take in everyone in Russia escaping Putin's war.
You can't expect a tiny poor country to help Russia's population while countries with more ability to help don't. As I said both China and US have the land and resources to take everyone, complain to them.
And Estonia could accept people that have their own finances or people that are allowed passage in other countires and etc. There are many ways to work on this if you actually care about these people to help and solve a problem. If all countries acted this way, I won't help because aren't helping enough, we are going to be in a big trouble. I would complain to US and China if this was a post about that and someone was defending their positions, we can turn this discussion as well into, ask others to help as well, instead of just defending this wrong decision by Estonia. Estonian government, if they really care, could put pressure on EU, China or US. You seem to be more focused on China and US, but reallisticly it is the EU that has funds as well and is closer. We should focus on pressure to EU to help house these people, or allow them passage or something.
Besides, I think it is morally unjustifiable to be dependent on EU support so much to help you with these things in order to keep stuff comfortable for already rich people in Estonia, instead of sharing with those less fortunate and help as much as you can. It is better to fight for wellbeing of all people and help what you can, instead of being afraid that you will be kicked out from a selfish EU (if they refuse to help and share this isssue, they are selfish).
The EU is not a federal government, it's a trade alliance, it has no power to make member countries accept refugees.
I agree with the idea that all countries should help all people but complaining that one tiny country that doesn't have the means to do so should be the first is the equivalent of blaming some individual who has like no climate impact for climate change because they can't afford an EV.
Ask the EU for help funding and coordinating it? I'm sure they have/are working on such projects already. If they aren't, they should be.
Currently there is no such funding available and a lot of hotels are already being used for Ukrainian refugees as actual refugee facilities are full so if they come here in the winter they will just die on the streets.
Even if all that wasn't the case there is a decent chance that this is organised by the russian government to try to create a breakaway region as they tried in the past and succeeded in other countries.
There is no funding avaliable for train tickets to other countries, but there is funding for train trasnport and manufature of guns to kill those people when they are forced to become soliders. There is no real concern about heir lives, just that somehow, the richest region in the World, EU, cant find funds for train tickets for citizens (if they are Russians). Better to let them kill and be killed in war, then pay for a ticket, that I am sure most can pay for by themselves. Just let them in if they have money for a ticket at least. That is a really weak excuse to force people to fight in a war.
And what is with this paranioa that they Russia is just sending millions of people to try to make a brakaway region in every country in Europe, instead of using those people in war. This propaganda, like most, is so contraditory and ridicolous. In one article they say, Russians don't have any more soliders, they are losing a war, in next, they have millions of people that they will send to your country to somehow take it over. It is a classic anti-imigrant logic where migrants are both too weak and too strong, depending on the arguement. Too lazy to work and yet take all your jobs. Too incompentent to fight authority in their own country, but competent enough to take over yours. War migrants are dangerous horrible people that are at the same time running away from a war, but somehow are flipped to be disgusied unarmed soliders at the same time.
Even if all of this could be true, that somehow they could create a breakaway region in another country, would it really be more moral to let them die in a war instead of giving them a region where they would have autonomy? What kind of warmongering is this? PS: Can you give any source of any country ever sending people to a region where there werent already siginficant portions of those populations and forming a breakaway region?
Why don't you help? Go fly to a Baltic state and explain to everyone you meet why it's imperative they let any Russians claiming to be fleeing settle into their countries.
I honestly can't see any reason why they would object to that.
So go on, HELP THEM.
They are also forced to fight in a war for Russia. But it seems that a lot of people who consider themselves left-wing, don't actually care about stopping a war, but to kill as many enemy soliders. They are pretending that their actions are motivated by compassion for victims of war, while actually they would let as many as people needed to die to hurt the person they hate as much as possible. It is hate, not love, that dictates their decisions.
Estonia can definitely afford spare a little bit of goodwill imo.
And it has, Estonia accepted the most Ukrainian refugees per population. Currently all the refugee facilities are still full and the government is paying hotels to keep refugees. If Russian refugees come here in the winter they would likely die as there is nowhere to house them.
It's not the same issue lop
So the solution is to decide in their name to keep them in country of war, where you claim they will be safer, without even hearing their opinion.
Ultimately their opinion doesn't matter. The government of Estonia will look out for it's citizens first and foremost, currently we can't accept more refugees and we can't deal with a ton of people just coming here so they will close the border.
Everybody's opinion matters, especially of EU citizens and even more of Estonian regarding this issue. Estonia can obviously deal with more migrants, it is just not convenient. Estonain goverment doesnt care about its citizens, but about getting reelected. They will do what is most in their interest.
Placing convienice of people from your country over others lives is obviously morally wrong. And unless you are a nationalist (right-wing) you can not believe that people from certain country have lives worth less than from another, even yours. So there is no difference between russian and estonian, and their interest should be placed at the same value. To disagree is by definition nationalism and if we are talking about ethnicity, racism.
OK if you are going down the road of ignorance toward both Estonian politics and the economic situation then we can drop that.
Are you really saying it's the norm for countries to help every person in the world equally and not prioritise it's citizens? Also by prioritising it's own citizens they also prioritise the 20 or so % Russian population living here. People's lives have equal worth but the responsibility to help someone falls on their nation first and foremost.
I am not saying it is the norm. I am saying it is right-wing, natonallistic and racist. Which is unfortuenately the norm. I am saying it is unethical and morally inexsusable, not that it is not normal.
It would be absolutely great if every single country in the world would care about every person equally. Both China and the US have enough resources and space to fit like every single refugee in the world so that would be an easy fix but that's not the situation.
I agree, it would be. But instead of passing regulations to make Europe (just as rich and more populous that US) take refugees from countries they are in war with. Instead we are focusing on closing borders of other countries, not only so they can't take refugees themselves, but to stop them from actually getting assylim in places they can, like EU. There is a difference in not fighting for right regulation to make a World more just, but to fight for new regulation that is making it less so, is definitely immoral.
The EU is not a federal government, it's a trade alliance. It has no power to control how many refugees a country accepts.
So they can't stop Estonia from accepting more refugees?
Nope, of course not.
Great, then Estonia should accept more refugees and there is no reason to worry about EU having a problem with it.
They wouldn't. If those refugees started crossing into other countries without permission of said countries then there would be problems and since Estonia doesn't have the resources to keep them it's not viable.
So it is ok to let people die because of a chance they will illegally cross to other countries?
It's not just because they would cross illegally, it's because Estonia would take on the obligation to house them and stop them from crossing the border illegally, which Estonia can't do currently. They have better chances of surviving as a soldier than as homeless during an Estonian winter. Estonia can't save them and doesn't have the moral burden to be the first country in the world to try to help every refugee while not being able to.
So winters in a filed as a solider is somehow safer then under a bridge in a city?
If you live under a bridge here during winter you are dead, there is no chance to survive that. Pretty much every winter hits at least -20C, that will kill you without shelter and January is usually the coldest month.