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Italian town in turmoil after far-right mayor bans Muslim prayers
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 18 Feb 2024
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Why us there so much muslim hate in Europe, I just don’t get it
a lot of islamic terror attacks in the past have made people bitter.
and i mean a lot of them
So this is what Lemmy is doing now? "Why is there hatred of Muslims? Because ~~they're terrorists~~ of frequent terror attacks."
Maybe you had all these terror attacks because you already had large groups of disaffected young men who didn't feel like local society had anything for them and then became radicalised?
In France, Muslims are half as likely to get a callback for a job than Christians with the same credentials.. So people already hated them. The terrorist attacks are just the latest excuse.
I think it just might have to do with the history of Islamic terror attacks..
Such as the London bombings and bridge attack, Charlie Hebdo attack and the more recent stabbings in France, the Madrid train bombings which killed 193 people, the November 2015 Paris attack in which 130 were murdered, the 2016 Atatürk Airport attack in Turkey which left 45 dead, the 2016 Brussels bombings, just to name a few...
I'm not suggesting that all or even most Islamic individuals are dangerous/terrorists. But there is a long, bloody history of Islamic extremism throughout Europe.
I'm also not suggesting this justifies these bans in Italy whatsoever. I share this because it's essential context to answer your question.
Muslim immigrants will have de facto faced as much (if not far more) hostility and prejudice before any of those events.
What changed is that by the late 20th century, it had become politically unacceptable for right-wing parties to be perceived to be preying on overt racism towards their countries' brown-skinned citizens. But the War on Terror at the start of the 21st century created a new organising framework for nativists, whereby they could incite hatred against exactly the same brown-skinned people as before, but claim they were targeting them for their religion and not their skin colour. At the heart of it is still the same prejudice towards those who are different, it's just that the aspect of difference they choose to focus on today is more politically acceptable than the one they used to focus on.
From the perspective of a brown-skinned Muslim immigrant, the ideological hoops the far-right jump through are likely irrelevant. These people were targeted by nativists before, and they get targeted by nativists now.
I don't disagree with you that it's the product of racism and discrimination. But the terror attacks also fuel that hate.
I can say the same thing about the consequences of my (US) country's actions in the 'war on terror.' We're the greatest contributing factor to the formation of ISIS. The casualties of our drone strikes alone (from Bush, Obama, and trump) were vastly civilian targets.
Whether it's politically/religiously motivated drone strikes on civilians, bombs in subways, or knife attacks, those actions spawn further fear, hate, intolerance, and extremism.
Even though Italy is enacting racist policies/systems, they are able to gather support for/'justify' their actions due largely to the terror attacks throughout Europe.
It's more than just a product of it - it's the main factor.
Over the last half century or so, the UK has experienced around 200 civilian deaths from Islamic terrorism and around 2,000 civilian deaths from Irish terrorism. Which community do you think the far-right in the UK tend to target?
The ones with more melanin who look different. Too easy.
All of the attacks you listed happened within a 15 year timeframe. Which is not coincidentally the War on Terror timeframe. The discrimination is a lot older and the history of Islamic-Europe relations is a lot more nuanced than this. Far more relevant is the growing Far-right sentiment and anti-immigrant rhetoric across Europe.
We don’t have black people to discriminate against, so we make do with browns after discriminating against Jews fell out of fashion.
Hehe, fash-ion.
A lot of people is mentioning terror attacks, but I think that's only part of it. The sexist nature of most muslim people living in Europe adds up to the mix. It seems to me that people in US are OK with burkini, just to mention something present in this article, but in Europe it is mostly seen as yet another sign of that sexism.
If there is one thing US has done well, it’s combating racism based on religion (Islamophobia, Anti-Semitism etc.) it still exists but much better than whatever the fuck is happening in Europe
Keeps us the hating the billionaires if we hate our fellow neighbours instead.
Probably because there is a, perceived or cultivated, associations between Muslims and immigrants/people of color. And if you can't outright punish someone based on "race" you go after the closest thing.
It’s not about skin colour, it’s about a way of life that is considered too radically different from their own: racists assume that muslims don’t want to integrate in Italian society, don’t follow the rules, abuse women with their hijabs and restrictions of movement (muslim women can’t drive nor go anywhere without a male relative). The native Muslim community is so minuscule in Italy that most Muslims are immigrants and speak other languages Italians don’t understand and makes them suspicious. They are concerned they could hide weapons under their tunics and hijabs. They don’t like that they cover their face and can’t be identified. It’s the lifestyle that they are bothered with, the skin colour is irrelevant. Italians were equally racist against Albanians in the 90ies because they were migrating in Italy by the thousands per day and were committing a lot of crimes, and Albanians are caucasians.
This only true in middle east. Muslim women in south east asia don't have this restriction and can do whatever they want like living alone, drive cars and hold any job, even leadership positions such as president and ministers.
People can already conceal weapons beneath their jacket or suit, and covid basically normalize wearing masks in a lot of countries (not sure about Italy, is it normal for a person to walk around wearing masks there?).
That’s actually not true, it is accepted that as long as one remains within the border of a city or county, there is need for a male to escort, the dispute is only about traveling outside of the city, some say it’s not necessary even then, some say it is necessary if they need to stay for a night, some say 3 nights, but this ‘can’t travel anywhere without male’ is completely wrong, this is might be stated by conservative(s) or maybe racists idk about that
Wrong, it's all about culture. Most muslims has fairly light skin anyways. A skin colour is very superficial, what's important is whether you integrate or not. I have nothing against people of colour at all, but Islam makes me very uncomfortable
Well, you are not obliged to follow it, you can’t use this as an excuse to take away their rights, I don’t like iPhones so I am going to ban them
Why are they coming in the first place. If they wanna come to a foreign country, it's their job to adopt to the local culture, not the other way around
What do you mean by ‘local culture’, if that means that one should stop practicing their religion, than that goes against your own constitution, if you want a place like that, then by all means, make a ‘local culture’ where everyone is only allowed to do what you or the majority wants, but then spell it out clearly in your book, then if someone goes against, they are at fault, but you put on the image of secularism and freedom of expression, and then deny one particular group this right
And the word for these kind of people rhymes with ‘fascist’
It's about not tolerating the intolerant. There's no rights for women, illegal to be gay etc, according to sharia law. Muhammed was a slave owner, and had multiple wives (including a 6 year old child) and concubines. Most muslims in western countries do far more crime than the locals. Why should we be ok with these people tearing apart everything our ancestors built?
Huh? Why does every discussion on muslim rights always start getting to Muhammad when y’all can’t justify your hypocrisy, how many modern day muslims have slaves or multiple wives/marry under the present age of consent in your country? The topic is why are you taking away their basic rights guaranteed to them by your country itself, if they do any of the things mentioned above in the present day, then that should be dealt separately
Sauce?
And arab countries are not a very great example in most things but one thing you can’t deny is that they have extremely low crime rates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Saudi_Arabia
A simple google search was enough from on your side, but since you don’t seem to be arguing in good faith, I put some wiki links for you
Sauce: https://www.ssb.no/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/artikler-og-publikasjoner/nye-tall-for-siktelser-og-innvandrerbakgrunn
Sure UAE/Saudia Arabia have low criminality rates, but you also have no rights there, and death sentences are a thing
I can’t seem to find one that sorts by religion, can you provide me an English with link to the exact page?
And if having a death penalty for being a rapist (I am not talk about minorities here) means a lot less no. of overall women raped, than I am more than happy tbh, the rules are strict but they also mean it is a lot lot safer, a person is gonna think twice before stealing your hard earned mac because of the fear of amputation (even though it’s not commonly done)
My current city is suffering with a rape epidemic, and the reason for that is most people can get out of jail after a few months if they provide enough money or have enough power, if they just announce that death penalty, I’d be happy
But we are drifting off topic here
You can look at which countries are overrepresented, and what the Islam populations of these contries are. Compare that to the underrepresented countries.
Furthermore there's countless of news articles about violent riots caused by muslims, and murder attempts towards Quran burners. And that's just Norway. The situation in Sweden has been extreme lately, far worse than in Norway, or anywhere else in Europe. It got so bad that they asked the military for help. I will give you countless sources, but right now I'm at work, and don't have time
Uh, maybe let’s say you are right, I can’t seem to make heads nor tails of the website, but if that’s the case, then I could see where you are coming from, but I still think that discriminating an entire religious group that makes up 25% of the world population for some bad actors is till racism
Edit: but why are you guys burning quran anyway?
Murder attempt: https://youtu.be/rMGBz5Zxld4 Rioting: https://youtu.be/oQSBqdEt-Bo More rioting and aggressiveness https://youtu.be/feCEk81OATQ Even more rioting: https://youtu.be/FlfgiSEiTfY Even more rioting: https://www.bt.no/hendelser/i/wAQRoo/eritrea-demonstrasjon-endte-i-slagsmaal-politiet-ber-folk-holde-seg-unna Swedish military having to get involved due to kurdish gang violence in Sweden: https://www.tv2.no/nyheter/sverige-forsvaret-skal-hjelpe-politiet-i-gjengkrigen/16089740/
Etc, you get the point. Who are burning the quran? SIAN (Stopp islamisering av Norge - Stop Islamization of Norway). It's a legitimate critisism towards against an anti-western religion that is getting increased footing in Norway.
A religion isn't a race, so it's not racism. It's not just some bad actors, it's a disproportionally higher amount than any other group. When 25% of the world population are muslims, why does Norway/Europe need to take them in as refugees? Europe itself has less than 10% of the world population, and Norways has less than 1% of Europes population. It's way better for all parties if they're taken in by someone with a more similar culture, instead.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/rMGBz5Zxld4
https://piped.video/oQSBqdEt-Bo
https://piped.video/feCEk81OATQ
https://piped.video/FlfgiSEiTfY
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
It’s upto norway to decide whether they want to take Muslims or not, so I am not gonna debate that, and from here I guess you are right that maybe a particular group might be causing more problems than others, but then I think you should clearly spell it out and say muslims will be under extra scrutiny/different laws, don’t put on the image of secularism, which is my entire point
Okay I am genuinely curious here, I am not very well versed about what’s going on in norway but I surely haven’t heard anything major like muslims planning a coup and overthrowing the government, or is this something else I don’t know
There's a pressure towards EU/EØS countries to take in so called "quota refugees". Norway is way to willing in that regard. Our politicians, and unfortunately way to many people living here, are taking them in way too willingly.
Secularism: imo all religions, even christianity should be threated as a cult. Secularism should be less about freedom of religion, and more about freedom from religion. Doesn't mean I want to burn down all of our churches and history, just that we should move forward with less religion rather than more.
About overthrowing, there may not be any concrete plan, but many muslims share the same goal of "spreading their faith". Lebanon is an example of a country that got destabilized into a civil war, after taking in too many palestinian refugees, turning it into a muslim majority country.
Imho countries like Lebanon would probably have descended on civil war anyway because of lack of resources and brutal military intervention by guess who
Here is the problem, conveniently made a comment about this just somewhere above in this post. https://lemmy.world/comment/7735405
We both disagree on a very fundamental thing as you can see, I don’t see any point in continuing the discussion further, thanks for your time
I feel like I have to make a final comment, because I disagree strongly with the comment you linked. That being an atheist is about being cool and edgy. One of the main reasons I dislike religion in the first place (especially Islam), is due to all the horrible stuff happening in the name of some religion. Stuff like religous wars, hatred towards other religions, rejecting science, and controlling of others (especially women). You may call atheism a religion on its own, and that I hate muslims, but I disagree. It's all about not tolerating the intolerant.
Well I hate that too and Ig I should have clarified that, for me religion is something you study and own but only for yourself, not something you impose on others, sure you can share it, but forcing it, a big NO
Science is comparatively not talked that much about in religion because it is not the main topic
Talking about quran specifically, I don’t think you will find anything that goes against established science, because all of the things it talks about are not some rocket science but rather everyday observations (plants growing, embryos etc), and I know it’s far fetched, but if you study comparative religion, you wont find anything in it that completely contradicts common sense, or is forced or bigoted, some strict rules that might exist are part of what you accept when you accept a particular religion/take part in something, and since there is no compulsion, I don’t think there is a problem (https://quran.com/al-baqarah/256)
And I would also like to add that that I understand your frustration, a tree is recognized by it’s fruit, you can’t say ‘Oh we are the worst kind of people, but my religion makes sense, see for yourself’, I think any sane person will respond somewhere along the lines ‘Why should I tolerate a tree whose products are rotten people like you’ or something idk I can’t seem to come up with anything better, so it’s something we all have to work on
Edit: And a lot of strict rules about women aren’t that strict to begin with, they were just made so by overly conservative people or people who somewhat misunderstood some quranic verses based specifically about the prophets household, thankfully most people nowadays are of a much more moderate position (see for eg nouman ali khan, he is stated as conservative by a lot of people, but you could see his stance his much different than what the media and extremely conservative scholars might make you believe)
So I will say, that your frustration is not completely unreasonable, but I will still maintain that taking someones basic right based on the fact that they are muslims is wrong, you can maybe put them in extra scrutiny when traveling or in public spaces, but stopping them from making a prayer? I don’t think so
Can you provide me an English link? My browser can’t seem to be able to translate it
Edit: nvm got it
Not that easy to provide, but the synopsis is in English: https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/artikler-og-publikasjoner/crime-among-immigrants-and-children-of-immigrants-in-norway
That specifically talks about immigrants so that still doesn’t justify your prejudice, but since I can’t read the study i will refrain from saying anything
But like I said if you believe it’s a problem then stop putting on the face of secularism and say that we will not entertain or give the rights to Muslims, then that’s a non issue, however you can’t simultaneously show that you don’t discriminate but then continue to do this kind of stuff
Well, I thought I had a little insight on the matter since I'm Italian, guess I was wrong. /s
Italy isn't the only European country with lots of muslim immigrants though. Idk about Italy, but in Norway it's 100% the culture people have a problem with
According to wikipedia you only have about 1% muslims.
That's nothing (relatively speaking), and on par with Iceland. In Norway it's at least 3,1%, with the capital itself having a ridiculous 12%
Right wing news outlets push Islamophobia hard. Same ones that love israel.
If you want to keep the imperialism going it's important that people hate whatever culture you're trying to invade so your country can "save it from barbarism".
Consequences stemming from the destabilization of the middle east by foreign interference.
Not all European countries were even involved in the middle east. Yet they somehow have to take in muslim "refugees" and destabilize their own country in the process. Even if the countries were somehow involved, that doesn't necessarily mean that the population of the given country approved of the involvement
I never said that one or the other european country was or wasn't involved, but consequences of an action aren't limited to who enacts it or to who is acted upon. Some here in these comments mention terrorism. As an example of what I meant when I said "consequences stemming from the destabilization of the middle east by foregin interference", I will mention the perception of Islam as a religion that endorses terrorism as some here in the comments did. Religious extremism has only become a problem due to foreign interference. One of the most well known groups, ISIS, only became as strong as they became due to the Iraq war.
I don't know if you are expressing your disapproval of their immigration, but I feel like we shouldn't put the two kinds of "destabilization" on equal levels. I'm sure the german and french natives can't say they have anywhere near as many problems as the people arriving. I also must note a certain double standard here in that I don't see anyone speaking against receiving ukrainian refugees, despite those countries not being blamed with what is happening in Ukraine.
Because we're getting overrun by them