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this post was submitted on 04 Mar 2024
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chapotraphouse
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Ever wonder if youll be able to vote for a guy you aren't positive will fund a genocide?
Ever get tired of advocating for something so very disrurbing? It must be ennervating, right? You thought Trump would be gone after the last time.
Ever ask yourself why you ask for so little?
Is it the pragmatic choice to make yourself so small?
What has genocide Joe done to stop fascist state legislatures from passing anti-trans legislation? What has he done to prevent them from forcing women to give birth? What has he done to protect the victims?
I don't know how to tell you this, but a conservative catholic octogenarian with a lifelong history of supporting racists, homophobes and oligarchs is not going to be a progressive just because there's a D next to his name.
Those are valid complaints, and all day fuck Joe biden, but at the end of the day I am not an accelerationist. I see no argument from a leftist perspective for not voting for our shitty option unless you think things getting worse will make them better faster. What is the outcome you have in mind? Don't vote to stick it to the libs, trump gets elected and then we all suffer that much more? For what?
Your choice isn't between accelerationism or not, it's how funny your buffoon in chief will be.
Considering the last 4 years of actual events, what makes you think your friends will be any safer under Biden than Trump? He hasn't stopped any of the anti-trans legislation during his presidency, or anti-abortion, or anti-immigrant - who are you trying to protect? Who do you think you are protecting by voting 100% Hitler instead of 100% Hitler?
It's the difference between lackluster do nothing, or active harm. Biden hasn't stopped it but he's not using his platform to push it. That's a small difference but it's a difference that effects actual people. Is one person not enough for you? Either all must be saved or just let other people make the choices? If you can't have who you want you don't get the privilege of not getting something. Your going to get something weather you like it or not. And I know I'm not going to be the target under trump. I don't have the right to say the people who would be targets arent worth it.
Biden is using his platform to push for harmful shit, have you been living under a rock?
The genocide in Palestine is actively sided by the US Regime.
The meat grinder in Ukraine is actively sided by the US Regime and in large part started because of US blustering and has continued in part because of the US sabotaging peace talks.
Roe v Wade was overturned under Biden.
Biden has given more money to the police.
Anti-trans laws are seeing immense popularity under Bidens rule.
The border wall has been expanded.
Biden wants to do Trumps border policies.
The military has gotten more money under Biden.
Biden has been aggressively posturing against China both with Pelosis Taiwan visit and his claims about the "spy balloon" which were quietly retracted.
Biden has expanded fracking.
Biden was the one who decided we could "go back to normal" and declared covid over, despite being in the midst of a pandemic.
Biden is not a passive corpse just trucking along, he has expanded a shitton of awful things. You only perceive this as a status quo because your personal life has not gotten worse. Fuck you.
And how many of these would still be happening under trump? You act like if you don't vote that there's a chance neither will happen. One or the other will become a reality. Which would you rather live in for your immediate future? None isn't an option.
All of them! I am saying they are the same! How can you be this dense? This is me showing you how they are the same! You are arguing for harm reduction and I am showing you harm isn't being reduced you dumbass brickheaded incompetent dogheaded porridge farmer.
At least people like you pretended to give a shit under Trump.
Stop othering me. We are still comrades here.
I get what your saying. I'm saying that when they both are the same, the degrees by which they commit these atrocities is the only thing up for consideration. In that scenario my morals dictate that I must advocate for the side I thing will ultimately result in less tragedy, even if I believe that to be slight. A single life makes it worth it.
We don't have to agree friend. I know this is a touchy subject for us, especially now and I'm sorry for implying that I was in any way morally superior for my choice over yours and I hope you feel the same. Ultimately the only thing this conversation effects is me and you right now. My vote and your lack of one will change nothing. Neither of us can stop it. Let us not be angry.
We. Are. Not. Comrades.
No comrade of mine supports genocide.
No comrade of mine supports trans persecution.
No comrade of mine supports racial oppression.
No comrade of mine supports the police.
No comrade of mine supports oil companies and frackers.
No comrade of mine supports fascists.
No comrade of mine supports racists.
No comrade of mine supports bigots.
No comrade of mine is fine with the deaths of millions.
No comrade of mine supports the border wall.
No comrade of mine supports increased persecution of immigrants.
No comrade of mine supports kids in cages.
No comrade of mine supports brinkmanship and warmongering.
No comrade of mine supports colonialism.
No comrade of mine supports the us empire furthering its grasp.
No comrade of mine supports the continued evolution of fascist militias.
You do.
You are not my comrade.
You do not. Stop saying you agree with me or understand me when you do not. The only difference between the two is that trump is an oaf and so you gave a shit when these things happened under him.
You are not my friend and this "high road" act you're trying to pull isn't fooling everyone.
If we met in person, then you would get hurt, because you are supporting a fascist, genocides, oppression and so on and so forth. Take this to heart and consider why a supposed "comrade" might think this of you.
You are correct. It does not matter wether or not we vote for Biden, because it does not matter wether or not he wins, because he is the same as trump.
Edit: Made it more palatable to libs.
Buddy, I'm just tired of arguing over something we both agree doesn't even fucking matter. I apologize for grandstanding, I let myself get emotional about justifications that only really apply to me and my state of mind.
I am trying to take the high road in the sense I want to be less angry about it. I want to be less angry and less emotional about something we both agree doesn't matter.
Like, saying I support all that shit for what? You know I fucking dont. I wouldn't be here if I did. Your just angry and being insulting and I just don't want to fight about it anymore. Weather you like it or not, we are still comrades and trying to act like the issue of voting, which we both know doesn't do anything ultimately anyways changes that is why I want to stop arguing.
We are too angry, too emotional, about fucking nothing. And I'm sorry I pushed it this far. I knew how it'd be seen and I wanted to argue my case anyways. I didn't come into it with the ability to be convinced and neither did you. It was pointless to start and has done nothing but make my night one of insomnia. So I'm sorry. Hate me if you want. I'm just trying to genuinely tell you I'm sorry for letting it get here.
You obviously support it, since you are completely fine with it. If you did not support it, then you would not vote for the guy who is doing it, nor would you argue that it was acceptable. Saying you "feel their pain" or "understands my anger" does not matter when you only use those words to diminish what is being said to you. Your empathy does not matter when your actions support those same fascists you claim to want to avoid.
Wether you understand it or not, we aren't. I am not comrades with fascist genociders.
It matters that you are fine with fascism and genocide. That matters a whole lot. it matters that you do not care for the suffering of others.
I think I realise why this guy is making me so mad. I would've been this "well meaning" left-lib white-splaining why "lesser evilism" is great actually about a decade ago. I see my own past smug ignorance in this guy. Someone getting angry at me and calling me out on my bullshit helped me along the path to understanding how ignorant and smug I was being, while thinking I was "helping" disenfranchised people, when the only thing I was really helping was my own ego.
I hope they take this conversation to heart and actually listen to what we've been saying to them, and seek to understand our opposition to them instead of trying to pull this "reaching across aisle, we can agree to disagree" lib shit. I do think they "mean well" they're just completely unaware of how harmful and impotent their attitudes actually are.
I think you're onto something there. For me it's the fact that they insist we are comrades and friends, but it's clearly not genuine. If a friend talked to me like I talk to them, I would seriously re-evaluate who I am and what I believe. Either way I would not insist that we are "still comrades" despite having a "minor disagreement".
That's the thing, they think it is genuine. They think they are "seeing the person on the other side of the screen" and we are failing to do the same. Any time I ever see anyone trying to remind the person they're talking to to "remember the human" it's always someone insisting on "humanity for me, not for thee."
They just flatly aren't understanding that we've seen plenty of people in their position before, and seen those people get better and improve, and examine their own beliefs critically.
I've seen this exact thing in plenty of local organising (and in myself). The guy who encourages us to vote for the "least bad" candidate in bourgeoisie election and discourages others from reading or actively doing anything they find uncomfortable because it "won't help." Finding some excuse as to why their way of doing this is the only correct one, and when they receive pushback, it is always just "people talking past each other" even when it's literally everyone else in the room telling them that they understand their position, but their position is not an acceptable one to have.
It's always a comfortable middle class white guy doing it as well. Someone so used to eating up all the oxygen in the room that they just flat out aren't even aware that they are doing it.
And yeah, their constant insistence that we are "friends" is just code for "This conversation is challenging my pre-concieved notions and making me feel uncomfortable, so stop doing that." but again, they don't seem to realise that we've seen this before, and know how bullshit they're being.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
In addition it's funny that's he's trying to pull the "I wouldn't tell my non-binary what to do" but he feels comfortable educating me. Also misgendering me, but we're apparently still comrades lol. It's just a tiny misunderstanding, just a tiny disagreement.
Yeah, I just saw that, funny how the left libs always talk about respecting people, but abandon that respect the instant they are no longer treated as The Most Important Person In The Room. I think this was just a mistake on their part, but we'll see. I have a feeling that their apology (if they even acknowledge that they misgendered you) will be incredibly backhanded and blaming you for their actions.
Haha they just gave one where they said they hadn't noticed the pronouns. Funny that I already pointed it out to them once, but they kept at it. Then they once again tried to trivialize the discussion. Didn't read past that.
It was even worse than I thought! You should read it, it's hilarious. They're lucky it's late and I need to head to bed soon, or else I'd probably spend the next couple of hours dunking on this shitlib who thinks they're a communist because they're "open minded" or some shit.
Lmao I just read the last line "you ruined that for me"
Lol.
What is up with you calling me a fascist genocider? Is that really the line for you? If you could kill me right now would you? Am I deserving of that to you? Another guy in the thread thinks so. Tell me you want a fellow communist dead because of a disagreement on voting.
Y'all forget that this text box is a whole ass human being on the other end trying to genuinely connect and talk with you. I didn't come into this conversation to be convinced and that was poor conditions for this conversation, and your going to throw around your big enemy words to what, guilt me? Make me feel bad? Just wanna hurt me? What do you want from me?
If you said what you were saying, and behaved as you've been behaving in this thread, but in real life in my company and the company of my comrades... if you talked over people as you've done, refused to listen, repeated the same argument, tried to change the discussion and attempted grandstanding and the smugness you've tried here, while saying you will vote for a fascist that is aiding in a genocide, and you kept not listening to people patiently trying to discuss these things with yiu, people giving you plenty of chances to shut up and reflect, then yes I think it would end up with you getting beaten up.
I do not forget that you are a person on the other side. I am aware that I am saying this to an individual. Do not belittle me so. likewise do not talk down to me as if this is some matter of "heated emotions" or something. You are not the first fashy "we see you, we hear you" lib I've met. If you truly respected me as a comrade as you claim, then you would not consign my words to being uttered unknowingly in anger.
I want you to not be a fascist. People have tried so many different ways to give you opportunities for self-crit, and you have grasped none of them. Perhaps this could have been an eye opener.
Edit: Made it more palatable to libs
Completely unrelated but thank you for putting into words what pisses me off so much about my dumbass lib-Trot housemate
You're welcome to appropriate the text for the next time you have a heated discussion
Mutual aid
Edit:
You are no comrade. Delete your useless account, you stupid, breying jackass