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Germans: what genocide?
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 07 Apr 2024
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Yeah, genocide often requires intent. So I guess this could be more of a massacre than a genocide.
But there's quite a few different definitions, some are more lax.
Except for all the politicians, from shutzstaffel commanders to the (Hitler apologist) PM's PR guy saying exactly this, using words like cexterminate' 'wipe from the earth' 'every last one' and many individual storm troopers posting on their social media (in videos while doing war crimes), or even their 'civilians' frequently saying it
Edit: nevermind. It wasnt a press guy; their pm.said it himself. Of course it did.
I really doubt their aim with this thing is to destroy all the Palestinians, but if you can provide those quotes that show that that's their stated aim then I'd definitely consider this a genocide.
How many do you need? So we don't have any more goalpost shifting?
I was thinking the ones in the above reply but it doesn't have to be very many at all if it's the top people saying it. PM, DM, generals (that sort of people) saying their goals are extermination of Palestinians seems like it'd make the case pretty clear.
I'm sorry if you see asking for sources as goalpost shifting but my goalpost was that there should be intent shown (because that's a common genocide definition I think). It hasn't changed. Asking for source is just basic thing on online discussions. It's not a personal thing against you.
How many. Give me a number. IMO case is already so obvious you need special glasses to look directly at it and keep your eyes. So tell me how many high level and how many low level (probably nsfl) sources would work.
If Theres a 'might convince me' range and a 'this is so fucking obvious how could I have missed this?' Range, feel free to include that.
Uhh, let's say five? Is that alright?
I'm sorry I didn't first see that you had edited the comment. I don't know what would be a solid number for "this is obvious". I guess it would depend on what is said by who. But I guess if you want some sort of hard number then let's go with five top level comments or something? Would that work?
Here's one article from January with more than five incidents, though only four from separate named top level sources. These aren't ambiguous or off record; these are what south Africa's lawyers are taking to the UN world court. (Prime minister, deputy head of parliament/head of dominant party, defense minister, 'heritage minister' whatever that is) https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-rhetoric-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-case_n_65a94997e4b041f1ce65175e
Heres another article from about the same time about the same thing, also cites a 5th top level named source (adding finance minister) https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724
So that's five (more? Didn't scroll down farther in AP article) cabinetish level genocidal shit geysers in literally the first two search results.
And as a fun bonus, here's the kinds of songs they have their children sing: https://www.palestinechronicle.com/we-will-annihilate-everyone-in-gaza-israeli-children-song-calls-for-destroying-gaza-video/
Taking a loooooooong-ass shower now, so sorry about slow reply.
The thing about fascism is: every accusation is a confession. Every last one. I know, you're thinking the dumb version of 'he who fights monsters' (having never read Nietzsche), but that was Hitlers entire strategy with 'the big lie'; to turn his storm troopers into exactly the thing he accused his victims of being, and then use shit libs like you as his defense. And it worked for a really fun king long time. Read a book (though maybe not his. Plenty of scholars of fascism out there can explain it better than i!) .
They aren't human. They weren't born this way, and denying that is denying their autonomy. They've said they won't stop, short of being killed, or that 'nothing will stop us'. There is one way to stop this genocide, and if you didn't care about saving the Palestinian people, you're a fucking bad faith liar for saying there is anything disallowed to do to kapostanis. They need to die. Their 'culture' (which is literally just atrocities and shit they pillaged. Bet you can't even get a decent bagel or pastrami sandwich over there)
And lol, using grammar or immediate 'fuck wrong button' edits to pretend I said totally different shit
I don't think those show the sort of genocidal intent we discussed it, with more obvious extermination comments. "We must deal with them like with Amalekites" would be one for sure.
The first comment from here is much clearer.
I think that might be true for some, though deputy speaker from the ruling party seems like someone who'd have a role.
Off topic, but the two articles are remarkably similar. Some stuff (not meaning quotes) are word for word same and the same structure and everything is the same. Journalists being lazy, I guess.
I don't know if you are saying that about Israelis or talking about or lampooning the rhetoric the Israelis use about Palestinians.
I was talking about how you added a lot to your comment. First the comment was just "How many. Give me a number.", then you added the rest. That's what I meant.
Youre not responding to any if the other examples. There are at least five in those two links.
I fucking called that you would move the goal posts.
Genocidal fucking coward.
I thought the other examples was some soldiers and a journalist, a mention of "military officials and two Israeli pop singers are also cited by South Africa for making inflammatory comments" (didn't include the comments) so not the top level stuff we discussed about? The goalposts have always been the same and you even wanted a specific number for it, five top level comments talking about extermination etc.
It would be a lot easier if you quoted the parts you specifically refer to, so there would be no room for me to miss them. A lot clearer that way.
Wat. I'm just disagreeing with you online, it doesn't seem serious enough to call me genocidal because of that, even if you are very passionate about the topic.
I listed the officials cited. At least five cabinet level or high up parliament ghouls.vthere were more but I stopped when I reached five.
By defending and denying their genocide, in the face of overwhelming evidence, after moving hoal posts, you are a part of it.
If you mean this: "(Prime minister, deputy head of parliament/head of dominant party, defense minister, ‘heritage minister’ whatever that is)" then yeah I saw that, but didn't really think out of them there were the sort of outright genocidal comments from top decision makers other than maybe deputy speaker. For "heritage minister", I don't know how influential role that is and it was a smaller part so maybe?
So unless I'm mistaken I did respond to them all. I didn't respond to the lower level comments (soldiers, a journalist, so on) because I didn't think that's what you meant anyway. This sort of confusion is why I was hoping you'd quote what was said and then write who said it. It's a bit of effort but would make it a lot clearer and make sure we're talking about the same thing.
I just don't think it fits the mentioned definition, that's all. That's not defending the action at all. I don't know about overwhelming evidence, I might've missed something crucial but what I did interact with didn't seem convincing in the way I was hoping. As for goalposts, they've stayed the same. You helped set up some of those goalposts, so it's strange you'd think they've moved.
Don't tell people to self-harm.
Okay yeah that wasn't my finest statement.
I'm guessing that's your eloquent way of saying that you are done discussing the actual topic.
You never started dear. And I'm going to assume that's a no on the self awareness.
You wrote that. Not only is it not talking about the actual topic, I'm also pretty sure it's straight up against the sub and instance rules. Then again, you also wrote
If you don't have any actual arguments or wish to discuss, it's easier to just say so.
Dude youre literally a genocide denier.
Of an ongoing genocide. Not just ignorant; a denier. Any rules that would defend you disgust me enough to fuck off anyway.
Also, great job taking shit out of context.
We're discussing if the actions of Israel fit the definition.
We were discussing nothing.
You are an odd fellow.
I didn't see your edit earlier. Taking what shit out of context?
Go away genocide denier.
You say all these things and then I ask you to clarify, you get pissed. Why even say them in the first place then, just stop replying if you don't want to continue on lol.
I clarified, are you being paid per post, Nazi?
Where did you clarify? I don't see it. What did I take out of context?
Teeeeensy nitpick: there are two definitions of genocide that have ever mattered. Two. Not many. Two.
Lemkins original, much much broader, definition, And the one you're familiar with, adopted by the UN because like everyone on the permanent security council thing had an interest in the definition being a little more narrow. Under which the way the Palestinian people are being exterminated absolutely still counts.
Interestingly, by lemkin's broader definition, making the shutzstaffel stop killing Palestinians might constitute a genocide of the kapostanis; it would be destroying every trace of their culture, and the means of its reproduction.
I didn't say there were plenty "that have ever mattered" so it doesn't seem like a nitpick towards me.
I'm sure your high school had its own? Doesn't count.
There are plenty of abbreviations. But those aren't separate content; just condensed versions.
There are two.
Well that's certainly a view.
If Theres ever a genocide against a group I know includes you,I'm going to laugh at it so hard.
Which is probably going to get me kicked out of a lot of 'stop the genocide' stuff.
Weird.
Yeah I'm not gonna look totally cracked and it's gonna be all your fault, I hope it occurs to you to feel bad about making me laugh at such an inappropriate time while you're starving to death, because it was not a nice thing to do.
I probably wouldn't be thinking about some random Lemmy comment in that situation tbh
Wow. Rude.
Sorry