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[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 32 points 6 months ago

Because (so-called) "libertarians" aren't.

The term "libertarian" has been hijacked in the anglophone-world (starting in the US, of course) to essentially just mean "fundamentalist capitalist" - they are right-wingers who have been immunized from reality and mindlessly support only "liberty" as it applies to private corporations and their interests. Therefore, it shouldn't surprise anyone that you can find these (so-called) "libertarians" anywhere you find neo-nazis and the KKK.

In the non-anglophone world, the term libertarian still holds it's original meaning - a socialist... or, more specifically, an anarchist.

[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 15 points 6 months ago

It does seem to now mean "people that don't want to pay their taxes".

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 10 points 6 months ago

I can't think of anything more spoilt and privileged than taxes being the only thing you have to whine about.

[-] trafficnab@lemmy.ca 8 points 6 months ago

The best description for the modern "libertarian" I've heard is that they're just conservatives who smoke weed

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

The best description for the modern “libertarian” I’ve heard is that they’re just ~~conservatives~~ fascists who smoke weed

Now I agree.

[-] trafficnab@lemmy.ca 5 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I don't think they're fascist, just selfish in most cases. They take the "me" in "Don't tread on me" too literally, and only care about their own rights and their own needs, fuck everyone else's.

Their Venn diagram of "Things the government should provide/allow people to do" and "Things I personally need/want to do" is just a circle, and they won't lift a finger to try to shape the government to work well for anyone else.

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago

One of the vilest messiahs of US "libertarianism," Murray Rothbard, associated with Holocaust deniers and argued for the pig to be allowed to torture suspects (not people convicted of anything - suspects).

If your roots are fascist, you are fascist. US "libertarianism" is about as fascist as Heinrich Himmler.

[-] trafficnab@lemmy.ca 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Probably 99% of self described libertarians don't know anything about that, or actual libertarian rhetoric in general, they just want to smoke weed and not pay taxes for stuff that doesn't personally benefit them and they think that's what libertarianism is

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

Now that lemmy is overflowing with liberals - people who get their ideas of what political concepts actually mean from CNN and "Law & Order" reruns - I am constantly having to deal with people who don't know where the ideologies they cling to come from. or even means in reality.

So I guess these (supposed) "libertarians" isn't alone in that regard.

[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

FWIW,

rw:Murray Rothbard

Rothbard was one of the foremost proponents of the pseudo-psychology known as praxeology. Rothbard viewed property rights as paramount to freedom and so went even beyond von Mises, who was a minarchist, in advocating anarcho-capitalism. He was also known as a big critic of fractional reserve banking and the Federal Reserve. Because of his philosophy, he held many views that would be seen as progressive as well as ones that were misguided. For example, he voiced support for the civil rights movement,[note 1] but also defended the practice of child labor, "racialist science,"[2] and that "cops must be unleashed, and allowed to administer instant punishment."[3] Also, despite his initial vocal support for revolutionary black power politics, he later worked with Lew Rockwell, founder and then president of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, to run a campaign strategy to exploit racism in order to build a libertarian/paleoconservative coalition (dubbed Paleolibertarianism),[4] and praised the notorious work by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray, The Bell Curve.[5] He was known as the first anarcho-capitalist.

rw:Benito Mussolini

Benito later followed his mother into school-teaching and became politically active as a democratic socialist. He was a very prominent member of the Italian Socialist Party in the years prior to World War I.[18] He edited several socialist papers and also wrote a satirical novel, The Cardinal's Mistress, which was poorly written and mostly served as a vehicle for numerous anti-clerical rants.[19][20]

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

Soooo... US “libertarianism” is about as fascist as Heinrich Himmler.

[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

Apparently Rothbard wasn't as bad as Himmler, but he was bad enough.

You no more have to be a disciple of Rothbard, Rand, or Hoppe to be a libertarian, anymore than you have to be a tankie to be leftist, however tankies might say otherwise.

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

Apparently Rothbard wasn’t as bad as Himmler,

Of course not - the likes of Rothbard or Rand will never be caught dead close to the mass-graves their ideological grifting helped to dig.

anymore than you have to be a tankie to be leftist

I make a hard distinction between leftists and political racketeers masquerading as leftists right until they get the power they crave. I place everything spawned by the Bolsheviks in the latter category.

There is nothing unique or new about this distinction.

[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

Rand wrote about the Nazis and fascists.

She didn't like them.

So are you saying that your brand of leftism was spawned before the Bolsheviks—i.e. over 100 years ago?

What do you think about Karl Marx, a 19th century political philosopher, IIUC?

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

She didn’t like them.

She sure liked their methods.

So are you saying that your brand of leftism was spawned before

The French didn't invent left or right - they just invented a useful shorthand to distinguish between the two.

[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

The most successful socialists on the planet used fascistic methods.

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago
[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

Not all libertarians smoke weed.

[-] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 5 points 6 months ago

"Libertarian" became popular in the US when it started being incorporated into various science fiction novels. Probably the most famous is "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress." I love the book as science fiction, but the society the author creates depends on so many caveats that even the author has the old style 'free' system fall apart as soon as an actual government [as opposed to prison regulations] is formed.

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

“Libertarian” became popular in the US when it started being incorporated into various science fiction novels.

They got their que from right-wing economic grifters like Rothbard and Hayek - people whose beliefs wouldn't be out of place in Nazi Germany. That's why olden days US sci-fi writing was a festering hole of fascism - nothing else could have produced people like Heinlein.

[-] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 7 points 6 months ago

Heinlein was a huge friend to Philip K. Dick, and any number of Jewish science fiction writers. He was one of the first writers to have an African woman as a hero, one of the first to have a transman character. Stop using the word 'fascist' for anyone on the Right. It dilutes the term.

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[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

I got mine from the Libertarian party, a few decades ago.

They didn't seem too fascistic back then.

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

Of course they didn't, eh? Of course.

[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

They didn't wear brown, black, or blue uniforms.

They wore no uniforms.

One seemed to like Dead Kennedy's and Black Flag.

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

They didn’t wear brown, black, or blue uniforms.

Most fascists don't.

One seemed to like Dead Kennedy’s and Black Flag.

And up until very recently a whole bunch of them thought Rage Against The Machine was theirs, too.

[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

They seem most powerful in uniform—I guess that's what helps ties those little sticks together into their mighty hammer, FWIW.

I don't like Rage Against the Machine.

Part of it is musical, I suppose.

Part of it is they support tankies and a group that massacred indigenous peasants in Peru.

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

They seem most powerful in uniform

Sure. But it also makes knowing who to shoot a whole lot easier, too.

Part of it is they support tankies and a group that massacred indigenous peasants in Peru.

I'm not sure what RATM's deal with the (so-called) "Shining Path" lot was... there's nothing unique about leftists having shit takes or throwing their weight behind the wrong cause. It comes with the territory.

[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Yes, it does make fascists better targets.

RATM's previous support of Shining Path, or for that matter the USSR, would probably be quite forgivable if they admitted that they made mistakes—confessions, if you will.

Have they written anything about their beliefs, and explaining such, besides very generalized stuff like "fuck capitalism," "fuck imperialism," "fuck fascism," "fuck American foreign policy," "fuck this," "fuck that," whatever?

It's why I'm still ticked at Cat Stevens/Yusef Islam, and his endorsement of the attempted murder of Salman Rushdie, and his later denials of such.

this post was submitted on 19 May 2024
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