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this post was submitted on 26 May 2024
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I guarantee this person that half a dozen institutions around the world will issue them a degree with full credits already earned just for their standing up for Palestine.
Are those institutions worth as much as Harvard on your resume?
At this point it looks like they are worth more… so..
As someone who has a great deal of respect for academia, my opinions on the administrations of many average and top universities has declined significantly. In the last month or so.
Sadly, probably not in practical terms.
Even if someone is angered by their actions, the employers are unlikely to hold it against those holding degrees, it isn't their fault.
Meanwhile the jobs that only would accept Harvard or similar ivy League won't care about why they didn't actually get the degree, they just see that a degree was not from their precious "Harvard". This may be a hard requirement or just a massive advantage branding wise for your university.
If this weren't the case, Harvard couldn't charge so much to attend, no one would pay.
So maybe if withholding the degree came with a big refund for all the money spent for the diploma they refuse to give, but as it stands....
Sure, but let's say that, for example, La Sorbonne says they have credits earned for a degree instead.
There are many prestigious institutions in other countries that might offer them a degree.
I've never heard of La Sorbonne. Which is likely because I'm an ignorant American, but so are many of the people usefully swayed by the "Harvard graduate" title in professional life.
Why do you think that many of the people usefully swayed by Harvard wouldn't be usefully swayed by La Sorbonne just because you've never heard of it?
Simple, because I could be in a position to hire someone and wouldn't notice "La Sorbonne" as anything noteworthy when flipping through resumes. And it's not just hiring where prestige can be useful, it's business pitches, op-eds, political speaking. These aren't things universally judged by HR managers who, making the assumption they're even good at their job, might recognize elite foreign institutions, they're judged by everyday people who might not even be able to name the full top 10 US-based universities, but know the name "Harvard".
I've met plenty of Harvard undergrads so they don't hold a mystique, but the paper they get from the institution is nevertheless a valuable asset.
Yes, again, just because you haven't heard of one of the world's most prestigious universities doesn't mean no one else has.
Why are you being so dense? No one ever claimed that La Sorbonne wasn't known by anyone.
Yes, an assumption you have no evidence to back up.
You think that because you personally haven't heard of something, HR people in major companies have never heard of it when the fact is, they're probably hiring people from all over the world and, because of that, have heard of one of the worlds most well-known and prestigious universities.
It's been around since the 13th century. It was the alma mater of Marie Curie and Simone de Beauvoir (perhaps you've also never heard of them). According to Wikipedia, its scientists have won 33 Nobel prizes and 6 Fields medals.
So basically you're saying that HR people in major companies don't understand how to do their jobs because of something you personally have never heard of.
I'm just going to continue this conversation quoting myself from here on out, because you're literally making arguments I've already directly addressed.
Yes, and I'm going to keep repeating this: Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean other people haven't heard of it.
Ok, why do you think HR managers are the only people who matter for a prestigious university degree? Or that some people also recognizing it would mean it was a functional replacement for somewhere nearly all people recognize? You've just never even addressed anything I've written, even when I quote it back a second time.
Why do you think that you're not an outlier when it comes to recognizing, again, one of the most prestigious universities in the world which is responsible for dozens of Nobel prizes?
Again, answer my questions. I've humored you long enough for someone unwilling to address the text I've written.
Okay, to answer your questions:
I don't. I think most people have heard of La Sorbonne. You just hadn't.
I don't. I think most people have heard of La Sorbonne. You just hadn't.
Please apply that answer to all of your other questions too.
Ok, this is just disconnected from reality. Most people in the US haven't heard of Caltech, let alone a foreign university. Maybe Oxford, but that's not at all certain. The average person knows Harvard and MIT because they're in movies, whatever big school is closest to them, and a some sports schools.
Sorbonne is #48 in the US News global rankings. Pretty good! But well behind the weakly known Caltech (#9) or the top ranked Harvard (#1). The next highest rated US school above Sorbonne is the University of Pittsburgh. No one would ever say "just swap your Harvard degree for Pitt, it'll open similar doors". And this is on a list that's largely judged by people in academia who have a wide familiarity with schools. Ask a random American whether Utrecht University (#44) is a good school and they'll have no idea. They're unlikely to even known Utrecht is a city.
If you want to show me actual evidence to support your claim that most Americans haven't heard of it, go for it. Good luck.
Anyway, we're not talking about the average person. We're talking about the sort of person who hires Harvard graduates. If they don't know about really good universities in other countries, they really suck at their job when they're hiring people at the high end like that. So if you want to claim HR people who hire Harvard graduates suck at their jobs... well, good luck.
Holy fuck, no we're not. This will be the third time the second line saying such explicitly has passed before your eyes. People exploit degrees for things other than getting hired.
I'm done. You've repeatedly shown yourself to be unwilling to actually engage in anything I've written and have some odd fantasy about the notoriously well-informed American public.
Got it. You're making the "HR people suck at their jobs" argument.
I like how you keep leaving out the first part of that post as if you never said it.
I'd rather doubt it. They worked really hard to get into and graduate from Harvard, there's a reason they got into that school. There's a reason they got a degree there. It was probably their dream. It was an accomplishment they could be proud of, and one they knew that would help further their dreams in the future. To suggest they could just get one anywhere else is dickish.
And after this fiasco I'd wager their feelings have changed.
You think they're entire life goals have changed? I'd rather doubt it.
Of course they are, because now you have this whole affair to write about. You were good enough to graduate from Harvard, so good that you got famous because of your just actions, and then you got a degree from somewhere else.
If you want to work at some unethical company, they might not take you, but if if it's a place that has some semblance of integrity, then your resume is rock solid.
A lot of companies don't like "troublemakers", no matter their core ethics. They demonstrated that they're willing to speak their mind publicly even if the people "above" them tell them not to and that's something nearly all "above" people (e.g., managers doing hiring) can't tolerate.
Very possibly depending on the institution.
Not sure why you're being downvoted, it's a valid question and I don't think you're asking it to be mean.
Of course not but you will get downvoted anyway cause this is Lemmy
Who the fuck cares
Probably those students who paid for the classes and work so hard to graduate at Harvard I would imagine. Probably matters a lot to them. I think maybe suggesting that it's no big deal they had their degrees stripped from them unjustly Because they can just get one from somewhere else is kind of asinine to say.
You get why this tracks with Lemmy though right?
That's not the point I'm making.
Attending a graduation ceremony is a different thing than being able to graduate. I think I read earlier that they were banned from the former, but I had not seen where they would literally be denied their actual degree.
As this article points out they're barred from graduation itself.
Thank you for the correction. Yes with all the talk of the commencement I wondered... but this article updates & confirms it.
Your info is out of date. The university has since stated that the 13 students are on academic probation for a year, and will be ineligible for graduation. In short, they’re being held back for at least a full year.
And realistically, the uni is likely waiting for the fervor to die down, before they find some bogus reason to kick all 13 out entirely. But they know they can’t do that while the spotlight is on them, so they’re barring the 13 from graduating while they wait for people to lose interest.
Which means they will have to pay for another year of tuition. This sounds like it's going to work out pretty well for Harvard's bottom line.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. Tbh I never even considered that as a possibility, though you could be right - we'll see what happens.
No, they've been placed on probation and cannot graduate for at least 1 year.
Thank you - THIS Is the kind of detail I have been wanting to know. The college will not simply "delete" their grades for the prior 4 years, so being placed on probation is quite a significant hardship, but less than if that were to happen. Do you happen to know if they would simply get their degree one year later, or have to be "re-admitted" to Harvard again for that to happen? (my guess is the former, or even if the latter then a streamlined re-admission process proffered)
So this sounds like "introducing a delay in getting their degree" process, rather than "banning them from ever receiving a degree from that institution for life" one.
The article mentioned someone who gets to keep their Rhodes Scholarship even, so definitely people are sympathetic, and I wonder if the main harm from all of this will fall onto the institution of Harvard itself.
It is a spiteful action because they know they would lose the ensuing lawsuit if they went further.
I fucking sue you know how much it cost to go to Harvard.