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this post was submitted on 28 May 2024
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But the democrats aren't giving me exactly what I want! Clearly these people are better. /s
They're giving me what I want, but not fast enough! Everything must be done instantly in a snap of a finger. I must teach them a lesson! /s
Steady improvement is not enough! I demand perfection right now or I will vote Republican and watch this world burn!
What exactly about where we are as a nation says "steady improvement" to you? Who knew that asking democrats not to fund a genocide was demanding "perfection".
The president isn't telling people to inject bleach anymore.
I remember when gay people couldn't get married. I remember when I never saw a fellow trans person on TV who wasn't a fictional depiction of a serial murderer played by a cis guy. I remember when we almost never had cops caught on camera so their brutality was an open secret.
But 'steady' is a bit inaccurate.
I've seen actual people with family from Gaza online say that they want Biden re-elected because he may suck balls, but Trump will outright throw protestors into concentration camps.
Like... Trump outright said he's bringing the next Reich. And loves this murdering Palestine people business. So yeah, this is a trolley problem where on one track you run over some people, and on the next track you... run over those same people plus extra. So in this context, saying you're going to refuse to switch tracks to save anyone whatsoever is indeed kinda demanding perfection in a situation where the only options are horrifically flawed and no one really wants to do them, but if we had wanted to really do something about it, we all shoulda fucking voted in the primaries.
That, and also maybe this whole thing could have been avoided if Sanders hadn't made some guffaws. I know he successfully pissed me off and all he needed to do was not go talk to a talk show host with known transphobia and that painful comment about Black southerners. Who knew it turned out that asking Sanders not to support transphobes was demanding perfection?111? /s
Very smooth, blaming Sanders for his political kneecapping carried out by the very people you're advocating for. "It's not that establishment democrats are opposed to actual progress because progress robs their corpo candidates of their cover and endless funding cheat, it's not that there's an entire corporate media structure invested in backing the DNC establishment, it's Sanders fault for his 'guffaws', like calling for healthcare reform and advocating for civil rights."
Give me a break. The lesser of two evils thing is played out, it's precisely what brought us right to this point. It's time for neolibs to wake up, there is no way to avoid what is coming by voting for more corporate careerist shitheads, it doesn't work. There is no "comfortable" way of weathering the confrontation with fascism that needs to happen.
Do yourself a favor and buy yourself a gas mask.
Just so you know, when you say shit like this you sound exactly like the MAGA lovers that are frothing at the mouth for the start of violence because then "they have to take our country back".
There's plenty of ways to avoid fascism that doesn't involve just letting the world burn because you're upset it isn't perfect.
No one is "frothing at the mouth for violence", violence is here, people are getting ready to face the consequences of your complicity.
Nobody fucking wants to have to confront fascists and protest and riot, people want a normal life, unfortunately that is not going to be possible given the situation you've put us all in with your politics. Neolibs have ignored the political fight they were charged with and instead tried to sweep it under the rug so they could keep cashing those lobby checks, and now the disease literally cannot be ignored and has metastasized into literal fascism.
Vote for Biden all you want, I'm trying to warn you that it's too late whether he wins or not, and you need to wrap your head around the reality of what you're dealing with. No amount of jelly-spined fascist lite democrats are going to get us out of this hole, and the longer you labor under that delusion the more the fascism takes root.
Oh shit didn't realize I was the boogeyman singlehandedly keeping American politics in gridlock.
I'm perfectly aware that American Conservatism has quickly backsled into fascism, and I know the establishment neo-liberal wing on the Democratic Party ignored it.
Part of my family barely survived the Holocaust, and the rest of that wing of my family was killed, I'm perfectly aware of what fascism is and will do.
I'm just saying that telling people "it's all over you're doomed you better take to the streets and do revolution" won't fix the situation literally at all.
That's not what people are saying, and certainly not what I have been saying. Fucking wake up for fuck's sake. Jesus christ.
Go ask Neville Chamberlain how it worked out to try the business as usual route.
Then what are you saying??? Because so far all I've heard from you is.
"Neoliberals ruined it all, voting is pointless, go buy a gas mask, and you need to go into the streets and riot to confront fascism."
Tell me what the message of this is supposed to be other than this:
To me they come off the exact same.
Also, if the democrats aren't the answer, who is? Where are you planning to pull institutional support to battle the fascists? Or are you just planning to go into the streets and yell about it aimlessly?
I've made a clear distinction that I'm attacking establishment democrats and neoliberals. Stop trying to muddy the distinction, it's dishonest.
"Neolib." *drink!*
(Not really. If I started playing a drinking game on YOUR bullshit, I'd die of alcohol poisoning.)
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, defends genocidal presidents like a duck....
Would you like to tell these people to their faces that they're neoliberals defending a genocidal president? I will caution you however, you may want to wear some padding and a helmet.
What are you babbling about? The person I'm talking to is pretty clearly neoliberal because he's using all the same old neoliberal tropes and rhetoric to try and defend the democratic establishment, I don't know why you're bringing up some conversation you claim to have had with entirely different people.
Because you had this conversation with people just a few comments up the chain:
https://lemmy.world/comment/10311688
You're saying that people voting for Biden are defending genocidal presidents. I find it appalling that you would say this about people who actually have family suffering in Gaza.
This is a complete joke. You've actually already forgotten what people were saying to you. Why the hell should we take anything you say seriously if you're not engaging in this conversation in good faith? Clearly, you're not paying attention, and you'd rather scream into the void about how morally superior you are.
Again, why would I temper my criticism based on some likely-imaginary conversation you had. You know what's actually apalling? Supporting candidates who fund a genocide. You don't get to pretend to be scandalized and appalled by anything given the party politics you're supporting.
If your totally not made up person that you definitely talked to is going vote for Biden it is still a long-term mistake that makes Democratic support for genocide acceptable.
It's not acceptable and we have three choices as voters 1) Support Biden's full throated no-strings support of full speed genocide 2) Support Trump's full throated no-strings support of full speed genocide 3) Vote Uncommitted to communicate that Dems need to change their party politics around genocide support if they want to win elections.
Those are the choices, there is no "Biden will maybe change his mind once you reward him with power again and suddenly become less genocidal" choice, that's a fantasy.
Your reading comprehension is severely lacking.
Your moral center is non-existent.
Unlike Biden I do have a red line. It's support from genocide, from any candidate. Full stop, do not pass Go, do not collect the lesser of two evils.
This isn't about morality, I'm telling you that you can't fucking read or you don't care about reading.
Yes. Supporting or not supporting genocide is about morality.
No. I won't be convinced to vote for any candidate who supports genocide. Ever. For moral reasons, and because voting for that candidate would mean I'm communicating that support for genocide is politically viable for me. I disagree that genocide support should be politically viable.
You may be ok with Democrats supporting genocide, that's your call. You can call it pragmatism if you want. It's still genocide, and you still support it by going out and voting for a politician who supports it.
The Supreme Court just ruled that racial gerrymandering is ok as long as it's intended to advantage one party over the other. They gave a thumbs up to rigging elections and fundamentally undermining democracy and described it as a legitimate purpose. And if that wasn't enough, they went on to rule that courts must tip the scales in favor of politicians who are defending against charges of racial discrimination, even if the evidence overwhelmingly supports the accusation, adding unique barriers to racial gerrymandering cases so that they are essentially impossible to win. That decision took away the one remaining tool that was available to fight the GOPs national strategy of going all in on gerrymandering and locking in power in every state they can.
Now, I'm sure you can probably think of other Supreme Court decisions that the current 6-3 court has made which were not exactly great. And those will keep rolling in until the make up of the court changes, which could happen at any time. If Trump gets to appoint another justice or two, he'd likely be able to lock in the right leaning majority for decades.
The undermining of democracy and the extremism of the Supreme Court should be reason enough to recognize that the damage Trump can do would outlast whatever political calculus goes into the next Democratic primary. But add to that his stated intention to eliminate the norms of that keep the justice department and IRS independent so that he can weaponize the entire executive branch to attack his rivals and carry out his petty Vendettas. Add his open hostility to NATO and Ukraine, and his unwavering support for Putin even as he threatens further military aggression. And let's not forget his stated plans to rollback environmental regulations. Oh, and let's not forget the part about how he's planning on rounding up millions of people and putting them in camps. Plus, you know, the fact that he's siding with Israel all the way, and doesn't give two shits about genocide in Palestine or anywhere else. And that's ignoring the crazier shit he might do.
You going to go out there and gun down the bastards? Because they don't give a fuck about protests. They're happy to send cops in to assault protestors, and then use the protests as fuel for fundraising. If you want to have an effect, your options are voting and political participation (potentially including protests), or a whole lot of assassinations. Unless you think that some signs and gas masks will somehow solve the partisan divide and bring the people together in a massive unified front that can overthrow the government and all it's entrenched interests, and that this is somehow more plausible than being able to convince people to support better candidates in primaries and at the state and local level.
The court is locked in as right leaning for decades. The only mitigation here would be expanding the court, which Biden and establishment dems refuse to even entertain. Those are your "champions". It's literally the only way to fix the court on a reasonable timescale and they've shown no indication that they will ever do that because in their tiny little peanut brains we're still back in the 90s where everyone is still pretending that the courts are "apolitical".
Nothing you're saying here is compelling.
Pre-emptively? No. But ask yourself this; how should citizens react to concentration camps in their country? How should people react when fascists start jailing and executing dissidents? How should moral people respond to genocide done in their name? Your mentality needs to evolve now to become that of resistance, because when the system finally gasps its last you're not going to be able to keep cowering behind the lesser if two evils, you're going to have to join the fascists or actually take a stand. You need to prepare for that eventuality.
The question is of when fascists get into power, not if. The goal is to make that stay in power as short as possible and do all the things we should've done at the end of the Civil War. Fascists prey and feed on the "moderate liberal" mindset, that's what allows them to keep edging the line further and further and hiding behind "decorum" and other nonsense.
You have to understand that neoliberals have already fucked us over these last decades by doing what you're doing right now (telling people vote lesser of two evils, shielding the spineless democratic establishment from political consequences, helping propagate neoliberal rhetoric etc.) We're here because of neoliberal apologists and chronic political negilgence.
So when fascists get control there will be no other option to stop the momentum except direct confrontation. Which will include all manner of civil unrest. Yes, that is extreme and undesirable but that's where we are at; an extreme inflection point at which fascists are actively taking over our institutions and establishment Dems are letting it happen. It has been in the works for decades.
The question then is will the American people be in a mindset to actually resist or will they be like the citizens in places like China -- cowed, resigned and worn down into complacency by the slow, grinding creep of gradual fascism, any memory of what a free society actually looks like erased from their collective memories.
If fascists are to gain control it is better that their hand be forced quickly so perhaps the shock will wake people like you up and the fascists have less time to lay further groundwork. People who are in a comfortable bubble need to experience the consequences that, up until now, have been shouldered by the minorities and groups that those same middle-class neolibs claim to support. Fascism needs to be definitively banished and we cannot do that that in the political climate that neolib "moderates" create.
The alternative is fascism continues to creep into every nook and cranny of our society over the course of a generation and society acclimates to it. There will be ash clouds over our cities and idiots will still be babbling about "We just need to elect the lesser of two evils". No, force the fascists into the open now, force people to experience it and confront it now, to choose a side definitively, not continue to bury their heads in the sand and elect do nothing dipshit genocidal establishment Democrats.
We cannot keep rewarding democrats who won't fight, who keep maligning progressives and talking about finding middle ground with the fascists. Voting for those politicians is not useful, it's counter-productive. Being fascist-lite isn't cutting it and that needs to be demonstrated materially to the DNC before it's too late because either they need to stop sabotaging and running from their progressive base or they're useless.
Letting fascists seize power will not make it easier to get rid of them. If you think it's hard to stop them now, wait until they have a chance to purge the government of anyone who opposes their agenda, and wield the full power of the federal government without restraint or oversight. They have the insurrection act and they aren't afraid to use it. And nearly half the people will cheer them on because they get their news from propaganda outlets that will reassure them that the protestors are the bad guys and the soldiers stomping their heads are the good guys. To say nothing of the kind of insidious shit they can do to suppress dissent using the IRS, the justice department, the NSA, etc.
Sacrificing democracy, the rule of law, and what little institutional opposition we have to authoritarianism is not going to help us in the long run.
They are going to sieze power. The decision is whether you give them more time to massage the general public into the idea or not.
Trump will not step into office and start ruling like a king, Project 2025 or no. He'll get four years and will trash the cpuntry and our institutions. Once that's done Democrats will be faced with a choice; go to the primaries and vote for another milquetoast failure of a corporate dem, or vote for someone who is willing to fight.
If the lesson doesn't sink in by that point, it never will and the country is doomed.
Voting lesser of two evils has failed, and it will continue to fail. Biden represents a slow death, nothing more.
Dems needs control of all 3 (house of reps, senate, and presidency) to get much done. They have had that for, drumroll please, ........ 4 years of the last 24 years. 4 fucking years of the last 24 fucking years. And you wonder why improvement is slow? You want progress? Vote.
(If you include Bill Clinton, they have had it for 6 years of the last 32 years. Before that was Bush and Reagan, so 6 of the last 44 years.)
An interesting historical footnote: before Reagan won in 1980, Democrats had maintained control of both houses of Congress since the 1954 election. That's 26 consecutive years. Go back even further and Republicans had managed to take control of Congress only twice between 1932 and 1954. And it didn't matter whether a Republican or Democrat was President -- Congress was reliably controlled by Democrats, with only a handful of exceptions over nearly 50 years.
This is why we still talk about the "Reagan Revolution". It's not just about Reagan himself, but about the new ability of Republicans to win enough seats to have a say in Congress. And even then, Republicans couldnt win the House until 1995 and Newt Gingrich became the first Republican Speaker since 1955.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_divisions_of_United_States_Congresses
I'd point out here that before 1980, and especially before 1970, Democrats were a completely different breed. Don't forget that the Democrats had the Dixiecrats as a major constituent. These people are now the core voters of the GOP, and have held the Solid South since 1865. So you could say racist shitheads have ran the congress since 1932.
So right when progress ended huh.
They had a supermajority under Obama, who had promised before hand that the first thing on his list was legislating abortion access.
Instead they helped pass a GOP crafted bill that forced people to buy private insurance.
The establishment democrats do not want progress, they want the appearance of progress while running in place and they will always pull a convenient Joe Manchin or Sinems out of their hat to avoid backing up their promises with actual, effective action that produces long-term change.
4 months under Obama. 4 MONTHS. Not years, MONTHS. 4 months the last 44 fucking years the dems have had super majority.
They used it for the Affordable Care Act. Nice attempt to reframe that. Even better than the right's Obamacare. All so you can set up a strawman that they secretly don't want progress. If the GOP liked ACA so much, then why have they spent the last 14 years trying to repeal it? Hint: they hate it.
So we're back to what I said. You want progress? How about giving them control for more than 4 fucking months out of the last 44 fucking years. Nah, you want to suggest they secretly don't want progress lol. You want no Manchin and no Sinema? Vote so that Dems consistently win and then more progressive candidates can win. (Besides the very obvious if there were more Dems in Senate, then Manchin and SInema wouldn't have any power.)
It should be reframed because very few people undersrand that the ACA is literally a massive gift to private insurers. It's why they were onboard. Not only was it great for them because it forced people into buying useless high deductible private insurance that covered nothing, it was a dead end that couldn't possibly lead to further reforms.
Trump eliminating the mandate was the one good thing that came out of his term.
The exact same reason they aren't accepting Biden's offer to help them fulfill their right-wing wishlist of border policies; it's more politically beneficial to pretend to oppose it. It's one of the oldest tactics in the book; stomp and scream and yell about the tiniest thing and your milquetoast "bipartisan" dipshit opponent won't dare to pushback.
The right is always framing in the way that benefits them most, and you're falling right into it.
They seriously tried to repeal it. There's no pretending.
That seems to be what you're into: everything from everyone is all pretend. All these people that can afford healthcare now? It's all from pretend. All those serious efforts to overturn it? Also pretend.
And for what end? Seems so that you can excuse yourself for not voting.
I'm gonna say it again, you want progress? Vote. Give Dems overwhelming and consistent victories. Not 6 years (or 4 months) every 44 fucking years.
And yet it wasn't repealed. Weird, huh.
I vote plenty, just not for corporate conservatives who give lip service to progressive policy but then when the chips are down conveniently hide behind whichever Dem gets to be the rotating villain this time around.
Ask yourself this; how much do you think republicans could get done with a 4 month super majority?
Corporate democrats will drag their feet as slow as they need to no matter how much time you give them because they aren't actually interested in change or progress. They're happy to play grab ass with their GOP buddies as Republicans slide the whole circus closer and closer towards fascism.
Its not even that Democrats are slowing our descent, we've slid all the way to the bottom of the hill already and Democrats are just there miming pulling on ropes to get us back up.
It barely scrapped by surviving, so obviously it was all pretend, right? Give your head a shake.
GOP doesn't need a supermajority. What the GOP wants is lack of progres, they more or less want the status quo. The vast majority of what they want to do is block things. Just block things. They can do that with, drumroll please, any one of those 3. Any one of those 3. Which they get all the time. They had that for 20 years of the last 24 years.
Or the things they do want to pass is mostly just overturning things and tax breaks. Which takes, drumroll please, fuck all effort. That's it. They could do a fuckton because what they want is repeal everything which requires no effort.
Progress takes actual effort, hard work, and time. Stagnation (or regression) requires next to nothing.
And you're back to Dems bad, so I'll repeat again that they had control for 6 years out of the last 44 fucking years. But you expect everything done at the snap of a finger. So I say again that Progress takes actual effort, hard work, and time. To which you say "pretend" and Dems bad. Rinse and repeat Have we summed up this conversation? You're over your head in what's essentially conspiracy theories that it's all pretend. Give your head a shake. There's no talking with someone so deep in what's essentially conspiracy theories. Doubt I'll respond anymore because it's just more repeating.
You do understand that they already know how a vote will go when legislation is brought up, right? There is no "scraping by", it either has the votes or it doesn't.
Voting for or against something to virtue signal is not some crazy out there concept, it's routine practice from both parties. The Democrats do the same thing.
If I'm a GOP politician, and I've been railing against healthcare reform and demonizing the concept, going on Fox News talking about Death Panels and other stupid shit, to the point where now even my spineless "moderate" opponents have conceded the entire debate about universal healthcare and are ready to settle for a forced private insurance schemethat I created, why would I vote for it if I've convinced the Democrats to do it for me?
There's no downside to voting against, I get my forced private insurance bill and I get to go back on Fox and keep up my anti-healthcare reform schtick and dunk on the Democrats. There's no political benefit to voting for ACA and then having my base of dimwits go "Hey, wait a minute! Durrrr you spent the last 6 months talking about how Obama and the ACA are communism!"
Effort and hardwork? Yes. Time? No, not really. The lie about time is what has you so tripped up -- change doesn't necessitate generations and generations, that's simply speech design to pre-defeat an effort. The only thing standing in the way of change are those who buy into Democratic bullshit excuses.
Remember when Biden implemented Sanders' child tax credit and it instantaneously halved child poverty? Yeah, that is how quick change can be.
I'm not voting for people because I want a functioning healthcare system for my great great grandchildren, I'm voting for people who want to make it happen now, in my life time instead of making excuses to protect political failures like Biden and co.
Oh yeah McCain never shocked everybody by suddenly changing the vote. /S
Nobody said generations to write specific legislation. May take consistent victories to move the Overton window, that's not the same as writing specific legislation.
But yes it does take time to figure out exactly what you're going to do, who supports what in detail, because you do have to get House Representatives to vote for it (and they don't just fall in line like the gop), the funding, the million details, and then write it up. Do you know what a party whip is? Ever wonder why they need a party whip? Like tell me you've never worked on anything complicated, it's like trying to corral cats.
Inb4 but GOP. Repealing other legislation takes next to nothing. You don't have to craft anything in any detail. You just have to say no. I noticed you didn't respond to any of that.
So yes, it takes actual effort, work, and time. You live in a fantasy world if you think people just snap their finger and the world changes in every aspect on a dime.
Why am I bothering. You're ~~neck deep~~ way over your head in conspiracy theories.
Which democrats gave had. There was 0 excuse when Obama had a super majority to not gave abortion legislation ready. In fact they did. Talk about not knowing about the details.
Stop making excuses for them, you're not helping anyone by trying to deflect oressure, you're only actively aiding in the false narrative about "it requires time". If you continue to make excuses for the chronic, decades long failure to meet the mandate given to Democrats by the American people it can only be assumed you want to trend of abject failure to continue.
That is a two part problem.
The Dems only had the super majority because they were aligned with Independent senators, so they didn't actually have a supermajority.
At least one of the Dems was opposed to national healthcare because he was a piece of shit, and they feared getting rid of the filibuster to pass single payer because apparently Dems don't understand that the GOP is based on obstruction.
Dems need to get rid of the filibuster so they can actually accomplish things when they hold all three branches. Actually doing things would garner them more votes!