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Trump told donors he will crush pro-Palestinian protests, deport demonstrators
(www.washingtonpost.com)
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this post was submitted on 27 May 2024
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are two mutually exclusive positions
Wrong. What the democratic party does is nearly irrelevant.
"We will not vote for Biden because of Gaza" and "We will do what's best for the Palestinians who live in Gaza" are, unfortunately, truly mutually exclusive positions.
It's extremely sad, but that's the position your Republican neighbors have put you in.
Voting for someone is giving them a stamp of approval either explicitly or implictly. Democrats need to lose. They need to be afraid of losing votes. If they can act in this manner and still win, they are learning the wrong lesson. The quiet part that Trump said out loud - that he can shoot someone on 5th Ave and people would still vote for him.
I'm tired of this end of the world argument for voting Biden. If our institutions are so fragile that this election topples our democracy for good - then sorry to burst your bubble but the democracy is already a goner.
Israel is committing the worst ethnic cleansing campaign of our generation. I cannot and will not vote for someone embracing them and helping them get away with it. We cannot let fear cloud our principles.
I agree.
Re: Committing the worst ethnic cleansing campaign:
During the Congolese Civil War, between October 2002 and Jan 2003 Congolese forces killed 40% of the Pygmy Population of Congo. Thats 70.000 people. I'd argue thats worse.
The Darfur Genocide is still ongoing and has killed 300.000 People.
The Rohingya Genocide killed 20.000 and led 1 million people to flee their homeland, that was in 2017.
The Yazidi Genocide displaced 71% of the global Yazidi population and killed 5.000, out of a population of 700.000. This ended only in 2016.
There are currently 19 million people suffering from starvation in Yemen, due to a war perpetrated by Saudi- and Iran-backed forces.
The Amhara are suffering a genocide for the last 30 years, which has resulted in 2 Million People being absent from any record. During the recent Ethiopean War another 2 million Amhara fled their homeland while being raped, enslaved and killed.
Noone in this thread would deny the Palestinian Genocide, but to claim its the worst one in a whole generation is to ignore at least 3 or 4 genocides on this list.
Think about it this way:
Do you want to move the Overton window? I presume yes (and to the left). You accomplish that by giving Dems consistent and overwhelming victories. When the Dems win consistently, then they can move left. When they lose they will go to the center. When they go against an incumbent R they will run a center candidate, that's how we got Bill Clinton and Biden. Want them to move left? Vote and give them consistent and overwhelming victories.
And I know this isn't remotely possible given how entrenched red states are, but if the Dems got a super majority, I fully expect we'd get ranked choice voting, and for the Dem party to split. Progressives and moderates don't particularly want to be in the same party, but it is a necessity until the ~~racist~~ fascist right (and their judges, etc) can be removed. And that requires a super majority.
I seriously had a glimmer of hope that this would be the course correction after Jan 6th, but I quickly discovered how foolish I was to think the Right, and their voters, actually have a line to cross.
Edit - that was an autocorrect error, but still rather accurate...
Giving up your right to vote isn't going to teach Democrats anything about needing your vote.
Let me get your position straight: you can't do anything about democracy in the U.S., but you can do something about ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
You either don't live in the US or are incoherent.
I think you're wrong. I think if Democrats lose this election they will do their analysis and focus groups and surveys and if it points to the decisive issue being Gaza then they will change their attitude on Gaza - even if marginally, they will be forced to.
As for me, I just got my right to vote 2 years ago and I've been living here 25 years. I'm going to vote. I'm just not voting for Biden or Trump. I'll write uncommitted or blank or something.
This is what democracy should be. Candidates lose votes if they don't act in a manner congruent with the beliefs of the base. This "vote no matter what because the alternative is worse" is not democracy. If you don't have a choice, you don't have a vote. You're headed same direction either way.
You can think that we are wrong all you want. But we can point to evidence that you're wrong. It didn't happen in 1980. It didn't happen in 2000. It didn't happen in 2016. And it didn't happen any number of times before that.
Literally the only time in at least the last 50 years. The Democrats actually listened and changed their behavior. Was when they were primaried by someone much more Progressive and committed. They saw the turn out for Sanders and changed because of it. They've never changed for non-turnout. Or to court the voters of third-party candidates that struggle to even break single digits.
Civil rights wasn't passed because of non-voting or even protests. It was passed because of a desire to win the near guaranteed votes of that group. If they weren't, neither a group would have passed it yet.
Teaching them requires strong candidates to primary them with and pull them to listen to you. Blame democrats for not primary themselves all you want it's just kind of foolish. You and we as a whole we need to start preparing now to primary candidates at every level of government in all upcoming elections. That's how they listen.
They should have had a primary in 2024 if their only candidate was a genocide supporter. If Democrats lose because of this, because they didn't, I'll be so pissed.
Perhaps. But neither party has ever primary and incumbent.
You’re not wrong. That is how the American electoral system should work. But Trump and Project 2025 would fundamentally break the American experimental democracy. There may not be a viable means to elect a Democratic or another party in 2028.
See, you can advocate for Biden without defending a genocide. It can be done ✅
You certainly can.
Biden rejoined the Paris Climate Agreement, revoked the Keystone Pipeline permit, created a 13 million acre federal petroleum reserve for Alaskan wildlife, greatly increased oil site lease cost, signed $7B in solar subsidies, enacted the Inflation Reduction act to support clean energy, created the CHIPS Act to improve reliance on domestic technology, reenacted Net Neutrality, repealed Title 42, ended the Muslim Ban, reinstated the sanctions on Israeli settlement on Palestinian territory, signed the Equality Act for LGBTQ+ rights, restored gay rights to beneficiaries, reenacted trans care anti-discrimination law, signed the Respect for Marriage Act, enabled unspecified gender on US Passports, rejoined WHO, rescheduled marijuana, reducing drug costs with the American Rescue Plan Act…
Trump repealed 112 climate regulations, left the Paris Climate Agreement, disbanded the pandemic response team stalling national pandemic response, left the WHO, repealed trans care anti-discrimination law, repealed gay rights to beneficiaries, enacted Title 42 and the Muslim ban, repealed sanctions on Israeli settlements on Palestinian territory, repealed Net Neutrality, provided tax cuts to the wealthy that further widened our already exploitative wealth inequality, increased tariffs on goods costing the consumers, repealed the ACA without replacement, seated the conservatives in SCOTUS that repealed Roe v. Wade…
It’s not a contest if you’ve been paying attention.
Is that from memory? Where can I find that list for future reference? Now, if we can get our compatriots to stop defending the genocide, we might be able to sway some votes. The genocide is an albatross around Biden’s neck and should be downplayed.
I originally typed it out here and saved it. I add to it when I see more points. Feel free to use it whenever you’d like. You can save a comment by tapping the star directly beneath the comment. You’ll find it in your saved section under your user profile.
I’m fairly certain Blinken is the problem. POTUS doesn’t listen to news or Congress over the State Department. He needs to provide Biden with a thorough and conclusive report to use as a platform for withdrawal.
I saved it. Biden can’t change his position on Israel, there is too much money and history for that to happen. But his accomplishments can be used to help people remember how bad Trump was. It’s the only play. We can’t defend an indefensible genocide, but we can acknowledge it, and maximize the other differences between Trump and Biden.
I think his pause while awaiting the State Department report was indicative of his interest in shifting supplied munitions to Iron Dome defense only, had Blinken reported crimes. It was only upon receiving an inconclusive report that Biden agreed to resume shipments as agreed. He doesn’t want to contribute to genocide, he just needs a founded reason to breach munitions agreements that have already been established. The ICJ is not enough to force the hand of POTUS. It has to come from our own intelligence.
With that being said, you’re right. He’s the far better candidate in every capacity, including Israel. Trump will nuke and pave Gaza and Rafah just to tear the bandage off, before claiming isolationism and letting Putin take what he wants.
Blnken’s a Zionist:
That’s true. That just means he believes in the wrongful eviction of the Palestinians and claiming the land as Israel. It doesn’t necessarily mean that he sees the Palestinian people as the sub-human animals that the far-right in Netanyahu’s corner claim them to be. There’s a difference in supporting Israel’s defense and funding their genocidal expansion. If it’s the latter, then he needs to be replaced.
Ya, a lot of genocide apologia in this thread. It's off putting, racist, and paternalistic. There's got to be other ways to support Biden without saying he'll be good for those poor Palestinians, the group they're currently helping bomb. Plus, his administration has threatened the ICC and UN for trying to protect them.
But the fact of the matter is that without huge changes to our political systems, the Democrats will just bring out the Project 2025 excuse from now on forever. This is the most important election in the world. Just like the last one. And the one before it. And the next one. Like in this thread, criticism is impossible against the Democrats, even while they push a genocide, for the alternative is Trump or someone like him. Not to say that Project 2025 doesn't scare the crap out of me. But it does seem best for them to always have the US on the edge of fascism as a cudgel.
We need to put our petty ideological differences aside and determine a course of action. If I were asked, my vote would be to vote for Biden (despite the genocide), and organize ourselves into a coalition, a voting bloc.
But we need to be more understanding of those that will vote third party or never vote for Biden because of the genocide. Their grievances are just.
That's a fascist's wishlist, it's a bunch of stuff that's never going to happen, but it's a useful cudgel for some people to bludgeon dissenters with.
Even if we underestimate them, it’s still horrific what they will achieve.
I’ll write ~~uncommitted or blank or something~~ exterminate Palestinians.
Biden is in a tough spot. He is required by law to provide military aid.
It’s not the law making him do this.
Just like 2016, right?
You are either a Russian disinformation agent, or a completely naive, and foolish person. Surprising how you think the Palestinians dying in Gaza is the “worst ethnic cleansing campaign of our generation”. Take a look at some countries in Africa (Sudan and Darfur region specifically) if you want to see some truly atrocious numbers.
Tell me where in Sudan you had some of the most densely populated urbanized places in the world carpet bombed and 2 million people tossed around and ping ponged around from evacuation to evacuation - all committed by a supposed democratic advanced country? Even worse- a key ally of the US? Nation who cares about human rights, egalitarianism, etc?
Darfur genocide happened 20 years ago over the course of years. Gaza we haven't even seen a year yet. You want to argue semantics about what generation means? You want to compare and contrast? Did you see the US president get on TV and hug a warlord with tears in his eyes as F16s dropped MK84 bombs onto women and children like Biden did with his precious Bibi?
Let's see. Maybe you are the disinformation agent. Trying to muddy the waters. Make it seem a little less bad. Very easy to say to discredit, yeah? You are a bot. Part of pro-Israel hasbara campaign. You're a shill, a dope, a duntz
Look I did it too. I'm so tired of this nonsense online. This all started around 2016.
The genocide in Darfur is ongoing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudanese_civil_war_(2023%E2%80%93present)
So after all that text, what is your suggestion come November? Pontificate all you want, but short of voting for Biden, you are supporting, either directly or indirectly, a Trump presidency, and if that becomes the case the situation is Gaza will only become worse.
So you are nothing but a naive fool with no actual solutions or suggestions, just fairy tale “I wish this isn’t how reality works”
Nothing naive about it "your vote, your choice" is still valid even today. You may not like the fact that progressives and independents don't toe the party line but you need to learn to accept differing viewpoints. No one attacked you, they just stated their opinions and you immediately went on the offensive.
It is completely naive since, again, come November there are only 4 choices: 1. Vote for Biden, 2. Vote for Trump, 3. Vote 3rd party, or 4. Don’t vote.
So tell me what option is a so-called progressive going to choose that doesn’t directly or indirectly help Trump? At that point, in the ballot box, no more “would have” or “should haves”. There are only 4 choices.
This is why I call options other than option 1 naive because 2, 3, and 4 benefit Trump.
Does the electoral college system suck? YES! Do we wish we had a more progressive and left-leaning candidate from the Democrats? YES! Do we wish either of the options were not old men? YES! And would a Trump presidency be absolutely catastrophic for the US and the rest of the Wedtern world? YES!!
Given these realities, it’s either a naive or disinformation / burn-it-to-the-ground approach you’re pushing for.
Your vote isn't the entirety of your voice though. If you telegraph that you will vote for Biden this far out, Biden's campaign advisors probably won't tell him that reversing course is the best decision for his reelection. If you say you will not vote for him due to Gaza, even if you secretly plan on voting for him, you have more power to change their policy and help Palestinians as a whole. This doesn't have to be a discussion on trump vs Biden. This can be about trying to strategically pivot Biden in a way that avoids getting arrested because trump sure as hell isn't going to fix things.
So dissenters are crazy or evil instead of just being principled? Good to know. Blocking you now.
Only if you ignore that there’s also a segment of Democratic voters who would reconsider support for Biden if he took a stance that they perceived as anti-Israel. Democrats are a coalition party of compromises between factions who have to work together to find as much common ground as possible in order to have any political relevance in a first-past-the-post system. Biden has to walk whatever tightrope loses the fewest votes, and he seems to think that not doing a 180 on decades of US foreign policy is the best way to do that.
Young dems are so fucking blind to the fact that the majority of Dem voters, the 30-and-ups, support Israel. Biden would LOSE votes from the largest segment of Dem voters for dropping support. He really is caught between a rock and a hard place.
That’s not what the polling says.
can't withhold a vote because policy won't change because if it did people would withhold their vote and then the policy would change
Donors != voters