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this post was submitted on 30 May 2024
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While I definitely agree with your general sentiment, how do you contend with the 66% of voters who think Israel is justified in this war, and the nearly 40% who think the way it is waged is acceptable? Wouldn't the electoral risk be even more dire if you alienate them?
I'm not asking that rhetorically, I think it's a genuinely hard problem.
My initial opinion is that 66% is about half republicans, leaving 16% of Biden voters feeling that he's doing the right thing...
Can you link the survey you're referencing?
You're right, i didn't have the breakdown by party and didn't realize the size of the difference. I would have thought that establishment democrats would be more strongly in favour. Wholly agree with your comment then.
(i don't have the link right now but if i remember to look for it on my phone i'll edit it here later. It was from a run of the mill polling institute, i don't remember which)
I found this article about a NPR poll which has a breakdown of support for Israel by age group and party affiliation.
I'm not sure exactly where Biden's position on the Gaza invasion falls on this poll, but it seems closest to "Support Israels right to defend itself while encouraging a cease fire". Biden definitely isn't withholding all support, and he definitely isn't fully supporting the military actions against Hamas.
About 33% of Democrats and 27% independents think the US should suspend aid to Israel until there is a cease fire.
Similarly 38% of gen z/millennials think there should be a cease fire until there is a suspension of aid. This is the smallest voting cohort at about 36% of the population according to Wikipedia, and also the least likely to vote historically. Perhaps voter turn out would be higher among this group if we had a different candidate, but no one is going to cater their political platform to a group that had never reliably voted, especially if doing so costs them votes among reliable voters.
Among Gen X and older less that 19% support a stopping aid until a cease fire happens. This is the largest and most likely to vote voting cohort.
Also noted in the article, Biden has a 15 point lead over Trump among baby boomers who have very little support for a ceasefire.
That wording is all you should need to hear to disregard the poll...
Literally no one is saying Israel can't defend itself.
And it's not what Israel has been doing the last 7 months.
That's a pretty extraordinary assumption to make.
Regardless of how you feel about that option there is little support among voters for withholding support for Israel until a ceasefire is reached. Less than 25% among all respondents, and less than 33% among Democrats and Independents who I'd consider potential Biden voters.
If you have a different poll I'd love to see it.
I haven't seen a single person in here link a poll, but y'all keep throwing out numbers...
So how about you link the poll you're talking about before asking others to find one?
And it's not what Israel has been doing the last 7 months.
Then that depends on what one thinks is necessary to achieve this.
They tried sitting back soaking up rockets and that just resulted in Hamas digging in and preparing to put a genocide on them
There's probably no real other option to defend against this happening again than going in heavy handed. Just like the US had to put a genocide on IS in Mosul and Raqqa to conclude those sieges
What?
You think that's what Israel has been doing?
That's just not a factual statement...
What about Israel not spending decades violating Palestinian human rights or not seizing their land against international law?
What about not kidnapping Palestinians in the middle of the night from their own country and torturing them till they admit to crimes?
You don't think that would ease tensions?
They were attacked on day 1 of their existence.
Sure, they're a bunch of genocidal religious fucks. But then, so is the other side.
So why would you say "they have the right to defend themselves" if your only practical implementation just amounts to "go back in time and magically fix a centuries old religious conflict"?
How do you classify invading land and killing civilians, while also cutting food and aid to said civilians as "defensive?"
Indeed!
Which turns us right back to the question: how should you defend yourself in this case?
You mean when foreign countries stole a bunch of land and gave it away?
You think right after that is when the conflict started?
And that it had nothing to do with Israel being formed by stealing it from the people who lived there continuously for thousands of years?
If you believe they have no right to live there and are free to be genocided until they leave, could you kindly explain what you meant with
So by "Israel has a right to existent"
You mean:
"Israel has a right to this stolen land, and also all the land they're able to steal in the future"?
Yeah, I'm done here.