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this post was submitted on 08 Jun 2024
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I wish Linux weren't completely fucking impenetrable for casual users.
It's gotten a lot better over the years
When I first tried it (back in 2010) it was pretty rough all around but after trying it again recently due to the whole TPM requirement for Windows 11 I've found it to be really straight forward
Linux Mint is really user friendly and is what I've even put on my grandma's pc
It's not that it hasn't gotten better, but that the entire infrastructure that's underpinning the GUI is simply completely different than what people are used to. And I'm not just talking CLI here, because the average Windows user likely doesn't use that to begin with – it's things like filesystem organization, software management, driver installation, configuration files, etc.
And it's not that these barriers are insurmountable either, but they DO require a significant amount of cognitive effort that not everyone is willing to put in.
Your grandma probably hates the fact that you did though. There's a small chance that's not the case but I'd be shocked if she hadn't complained about it many times to other people.
Your grandma would hate and complain about upgrading from Win10 to Win11 just the same, though. Everyone hates change itself. What the change is made to doesn't really matter.
People do hate change. The bigger the change the more they hate it. That's exactly why Windows to Linux is much worse for them than Windows 10 to Windows 11.
Cinnamon desktop (Linux Mint) is actually pretty damn close to the windows desktop, so the change is mostly just cosmetic.
People who don't understand what an OS is typically use linux mint fine because they just open chrome or Firefox.
Even the casual Zoom meeting is a breeze because of the Flatpak client.
So you need a whole ass sandbox program just to run Zoom? Hm.
You actually don't need it.
If you trust Zoom enough, then you can install its official client from its webpage, without "a whole ass sandbox program" that restricts its access to important parts of your system.
But it's your call, I prefer the other way around.
Its a selling point for me privacy wise no? The program Doesn't need the access to everything like my graphene phone.
You keep making posts that made sense or were accurate 5-15 years ago, thats why you keep getting downvoted.
Pretend you know nothing about linux, and go and try something like Mint, and youll likely have an experience that mirrors the people downvoting you.
You say that but at the same time there’s a linuxmemes post in my feed right now where people are joking about how broken drivers require an OS reinstall so you know
Well why dont you go into that thread and ask those people when the last time that happened was, or how often it happens.
You might just be taking a very old meme too seriously.
Very old meme that was posted 5 hours ago as of the time of my original comment, hmm
Memes get reposted, that one is pretty old.
Also there are distros that are more volatile, but all of the most popular ones are extremely dummy proof and intuitive. See Pop_OS!, EndeavourOS, or Mint for example.
That's the real concern. Can they go online, read email, and easily look at their photos?
People in my family are straight forward and blunt with their opinions and how they feel about things. She did mention it was weird looking but she was willing to try it out because her system was going to be insecure before the end of next year.
She's had no complaints so far in the last few months.
I think it is pretty grandma-proof; less is more. Windows xp-like start menu with no web results or other nonsense there, just internet button, picture viewer, and solitaire. Updates can be automated and there's no easy way to break the ui, like accidentally removing the task bar.
Exactly what I was thinking when I installed it for her
I was even able to give her Space Cadet Pinball back (she was a big fan back in the day and still kills it)
Link to the Flatpak BTW
Man, your grandma is cool.
Only sometimes unfortunately
As long as anything political or related to religion is avoided she's mostly fine
I don't think a casual user would in many cases even be able to tell the difference. I mean you have a desktop with some icons which most of people only use to start the browser which is absolutely identical in both systems.
You have a start menu with other programs and you have a task bar which shows the open programs and some status icons and a clock.
It is really not that different. Most people just start a browser and go on Facebook or eBay or whatever, use a simple word processor for the daily needs. I don't think they would be able to tell the difference.
My wife's 91 year old grandmother used Mint without any issues whatsoever. All she needed was solitaire and the internet.
But, a lot of people do look at something different and just throw up their hands and say, "I don't know how to use it," without ever trying.
It isn't impenetrable. ChromeOS and Android are Linux based after all. If you don't want to be prayed upon by Google you can use things like UBlue (inc. Aurora, Bazzite), PopOS, or Mint.
The advantage of PopOS and UBlue being you can download an image with Nvidia drives pre installed.
PopOS is a very mac like interface so you might not like it. Otherwise it's pretty much install and go, has good community support, and even comes pre installed on some high end machines.
In the case of UBlue they include images for specific manufacturers of laptops like ASUS, Framework, and Microsoft surface. You also get fully automatic atomic upgrades with rollback in case of failure, similar to Chrome OS. This means even if you do something very stupid like reboot in the middle of an OS update, it won't matter. It's engineered to be almost unbreakable even for new Linux users thanks to being partly immutable. You get a choice as well between varieties for normal users called Aurora, one of gamers called Bazzite, a development one called Bluefin, and a server version too. Being based on Fedora it's also reasonably up to date as well, but without sacrificing stability like Arch does.
Linux Mint is the classic easy to use Linux that runs on most computers made in the last 10 years and often older. It does sometimes struggle on newer machines with drivers though as it's not using an up to date kernel. What it's good for is that it pretty much just works when you have it installed and set up. It's popular so you should get plenty of community support. It's a quite similar interface to Windows while arguably looking better and definitely using less resources.
I've heard this a few times lately. It makes me curious how recent the impenetrable experience was.
I'm shocked at the idea that an average Windows user who tried this year's version of Debian Stable would find it even mildly confusing, much less impenetrable.
I switch between Windows 10 and Debian 12 Stable, daily.
I find that, on Debian, all the expected features are in the same spots, acting the same ways.
Disclaimer: I don't have an Nvidia graphics card to cause me headaches.
And I do understand that depending on hardware, installation can be tough. That's true with Windows, too, of course. At least installation doesn't have to be an issue for new purchases, since enough PCs can now ship with either pre-installed.
I do have Nvidia graphics, and it just works.
Same. Never had a problem. I installed Linux Mint and it simply worked correctly without any modifications. Quite a bit of care is taken with the UX which is outstanding considering it’s a volunteer project.
Yeah. I am frequently delighted by excellent usability experiences on modern Linux!
Maybe I'm biased, since it's so much better than when I started. But I still have a Windows 10 PC for my work, and - while the usability on Windows 10 is no slouch - I honestly would have a hard time saying which is better, overall, now. (Ignoring, for the sake of discussion, really obvious anipatterns like the start menu ads in Windows.)
The only real limiting factor is that most computers that you just walk into a store and buy (and are not made by Apple) come with Windows, and people just use whatever comes with their computers.
People rarely switch even default settings, let alone the entire OS.
I'm sure if computers came with Linux, there wouldn't be that many complaints from casual users after they got used to it.
The hardest people to switch over are the Windows power users in my experience.
Most are not sure how to safely and properly install a new OS. If a computer came with Linux already pre-installed instead of Windows, count me in!
There are plenty of vendors that ship with Linux preinstalled. Even Dell does this with select models.
And just for the record, the tone of this is meant to be encouraging. I love hearing that people are open to other options.
There are vendors who sell laptops that come pre-installed with Linux. Only thing is that they're a bit more niche. Dell is probably the biggest name who sells computers with Linux as an optional OS on their website, but IIRC they brand it as "developer editions".
Otherwise, you get vendors like System76, Tuxedo, Purism, etc. (Maybe Framework, but IDR if they even install an OS)
I still don't think that you can walk into a store and buy any of the above.
Not that installing Linux is difficult; in fact, it's easier than installing Windows IMO. Most distros come with easy-to-use graphical installers with easy-to-understand language, even for newbies. They also come with a live environment that lets you try out the distro before installing it. Thing is, most people aren't even going to bother trying it.
Here is to that changing. Society needs better options regular users will be able to just purchase and go, imo.
2002 called, they want their Linux attitude back
I’d say it’s really easy. The only requirement is making a choice to use something else, which most unfortunately is already asking too much for the vast majority of users.
It's just a little different nowadays. Like the other user said, they just don't know they have a choice or what to choose and follow whatever they know...
And what was one of the early bolsheviks' regime strongest points? They created schools and made people literate en masse, and did it with their own curriculum. People became less suspective to ex elites and religious propaganda, and became their target audience.
Adobe, Google, MS give discounts and special programs for education because this way people get used to their products. Many local organizations that touch these casual users don't have a real IT department and just flow with what's given, they don't make an informed choice like corporations. And that's probably the place where this switch may even start to begin. A class of students who started with e.g. KDE Plasma would be used to it more than they used to Windows, same with other software. They can already do their homework and play most games. What else do they need?
The sharp corner is to find money to fund select schools to show others it's not scary and makes it even cheaper for them in the long run, maybe some special troubleshooting team to teach them the ropes. I've heard from some users there and on reddit that their computer classes with a geeky teacher who installed Linux is how they've rolled in without a problem.