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this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2024
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chapotraphouse
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No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer
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Your post is clearly in good faith so I won't shit post or try to dunk, just so you know this instance is full of tankies and anarchists, investing is antithetical to our beliefs and any post about investing you see from this community is mocking the whole concept
I don't believe the Proletariat having a 401k and/or a Roth IRA in order to survive retirement is antithetical to leftist belief, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise. Even Marx speculated in the stock market. Ultimately, Leftists refusing to invest will do nothing at all to further expedite the end of Imperialism and eventually Capitalism, all it will create is homeless leftist seniors (if America lasts that long).
It's not about doing it or not doing it as an individual, it's about the very concept being ridiculous. It's almost like a magick ritual to people that buy into all the market bullshit.
Marx sometimes envisioned Capital as a Real God, in the sense that its will is served regardless of the beliefs or individual actions of those in Capitalism, and in that manner sustains "itself" and ensures "its" existence.
Of course, this was based in Materialism, it was always a metaphor.
For me the difference is between survival and personal gain, those funds are a forced compromise
So then, where is the barrier? Is this an argument based in Moralism, or Materialism? The Proletariat can and must do whatever it can to improve its own conditions, and in the absence of a state that provides for it, this must be done via the Market.
I agree that Workers, especially Marxists, should try to reduce their harmful footprints as much as possible. Boycott union busters and supporters of genocide. However, when it comes to retirement savings, there exist no ethical ways to move forward, except to live entirely off the grid and refuse to use banking systems.
Unfortunately, this can lead to reactionary behavior, a turning back of the clock to an earlier stage of Capitalism. That's why homesteading has a huge fascism problem.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't think it's productive to say investing is antithetical to leftism, considering the context. That would be like saying purchasing video games is antithetical to leftism, as they are for personal enjoyment yet support Capitalists. I try to think in terms of Dialectics and what materially benefits the proletariat, and ultimately if it becomes a matter of purity testing I believe we lose sight of the goals of Communism.
I dunno, this became a bit of a ramble. I'll end this with a fun quote:
“The moment anyone started to talk to Marx about morality, he would roar with laughter.”
I guess I haven't been clear enough in this thread, I completely agree with you
Retirement funds are an example of unavoidable participation in capitalism, but that doesn't mean that it's compatible with a socialist world view
Investing is and will always be antithetical to the immortal science, the goal is to make gains from other people's work
I have money on pension and insurance funds that use all available investment vehicles to maximize their profits, I have to compromise my values to get a (significant) portion of my produced value back because some libs thought that everyone should be an investor instead of feeding and housing old people as a right
Yes, in principle, however in the context of the western proletariat who must engage with the market to ensure their own existence, I do not consider it anti-leftist to give investment advice. Only if it supports landlordism or business ownership outright.
I don't believe this structure is because of Liberal ideas, but an attempt by Capitalists to tie Workers' futures to the same mechanism that enriches Capitalists, therefore reducing revolutionary pressure. This is a consequence of Imperialism, it's an effort to turn the Proletariat into complicit Labor Aristocracy.
I completely agree, the whole point I've tried to make in this thread is that A) investment is antithetical to leftist thought and B) most of us are still forced to participate in it
If you try to optimize your forced investments, I will look down on you
So you can have retirement accounts, but moving money in those accounts to a better fund is immoral?
Any capital gains from the work of others is immoral, the forced participation in investments is (currently) unavoidable
Billionaires and politicians have addresses
i really do not understand how you're making that distinction. is it "anything specifically earmarked for retirement" is okay and all other investments beyond that aren't okay? what about college funds for children?
another point: it's perfectly conceivable to invest for the future outside a retirement account and still use those proceeds for survival. What if you need expensive medical treatment in your old age and that's the only way you're able to pay for it?
Are you saying that personal gain from the work of others fits in the socialist world view?
Depends, are you a believer in means/ends unification a la Anarchism, or are you more of a Marxist? Socialism will not be brought about by personally abstaining from retirement accounts and whatnot, and the State does not provide enough of a welfare net to avoid this issue. Workers must invest to survive, as they must consume products of Capitalism.
have been trying to write a reply but both of yours ITT make the point much better than I can
Thanks, comrade!
Index funds are surprisingly close to market socialism and can be flipped to the benefit of society with little change.
You're welcome to dunk, I don't mind.
Assuming you engage in wage labor (despite it being antithetical to all of our beliefs) and your employer offers you a greater portion of the fruits of your labor via a matched savings account, is it wrong to accept it? I think it's not wrong at all, and workers should accept and make the most of their 401k.
Bruenig's video is a framework for understanding personal finance from a leftist perspective, or the "personal welfare state" as he calls it. These are things the state should handle, but instead has created a mess of rules we have to decipher.
In an ideal world I wouldn't have to mess around with weird abstract passive income in general since the concept and the means mostly just irritate me, but I do already have a 401k as a job perk and I may need supplementary income.
Living in the imperial core it's almost impossible to avoid being involved in investments, be it pension or social security funds
It's the age old question of ethical consumption under capitalism, personally I draw the line between surviving with the cards you were dealt and trying to gain advantage
We live in a capitalist economy, at this point it is absolutely dominated by finance and speculation rather than real growth and production, and it is pretty hard to survive long term without investing, particularly if you ever want to buy a house. House prices tend to rise faster than inflation, so you're losing on both inflation and appreciation. I don't think this should be the way it is, but it is the way it is. House prices and the rental market are linked by future cash flows so there's no escaping it unless you are homeless.
I'm not talking about survival, I'm talking about principles of the ideology
Investments are like haram in Islam, you don't wrong anyone if you are forced to it
The person you replied to knows all that.
Could be, but I won't assume bad faith if they haven't given me a reason