A post by Guido van Rossum removed for violating Python community guidelines (discuss.python.org)

submitted 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) by BitSound@lemmy.world to c/python@programming.dev

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Original comment:

I don’t know much about voting systems, but I know someone who does. Unfortunately he’s currently banned. Maybe we can wait until his 3-month ban expires and ask him for advice?

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[-] moormaan@lemmy.ca 20 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Searching some of these Python Community discussions separately and reading how they handled these bumps in the road as a group has actually increased my confidence in that group as a whole:

https://discuss.python.org/t/three-month-suspension-for-a-core-developer/60250

https://discuss.python.org/t/calling-for-a-vote-of-no-confidence/61557

On the other hand, the three month suspension of Tim Peters that started it all and how that was handled sounds problematic (the second half of the essay addresses each point from the original banning rationale in detail):

https://chrismcdonough.substack.com/p/the-shameful-defenestration-of-tim

Finally, Chris McDonough (the author of the above article) drawing attention to valid criticism of his own defense of Tim Peters is a blueberry on top of the cherry on the cake:

https://chattingdarkly.org/@chrism/113020098915125686

I hope the community ends up stronger as a result of this.

[-] FizzyOrange@programming.dev 18 points 3 months ago

valid criticism of his own defense

To be clear that post makes a valid point (don't defend people just because they seem nice or dedicated or whatever), but it isn't a valid criticism of Chris's post because he didn't do that.

He did say Tim is nice and dedicated etc. etc. but he also went through the specific crimes that Tim was supposed to have committed and refuted them.

I read a load of Tim's comments and this was definitely a case of the CoC people getting annoyed with someone who disagreed with them and wouldn't give up. There wasn't anything remotely ban-worthy.

[-] Thann@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 months ago

"Dismissing unacceptable behavior of others as a 'neurodivergent' trait, which is problematic because it creates a stereotype that neurodivergent people are hard to interact with and need special treatment.

I'll show you how difficult it is to work with neurodivergent people!

/* SLAMS BAN HAMMER /*

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 months ago

this was definitely a case of the CoC people getting annoyed with someone who disagreed with them and wouldn’t give up

People suck. If someone is disagreeing with you and won't give up, it's time to reevaluate why you're defending your position so vehemently.

[-] FizzyOrange@programming.dev 6 points 2 months ago

From what I could tell it's just because he cared about things a lot, and maybe is a little on the spectrum. He definitely wasn't wrong, and maybe other people would have just given up and gone on with their lives but I don't think that's necessarily a trait to encourage.

To put it another way, sometimes when people kick up a fuss it's because they are obstinate naysayers, and sometimes it's because they're doggedly holding decision makers to account. This seemed more like the latter from what I read.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 months ago

Exactly, which is why as a decision-maker, if you're getting a lot of pushback, it's important to take a step back and rethink your decision. It could be that you're absolutely right, or it could be that you're being obstinate just because you don't like having your authority challenged.

That's basically my day job. I make decisions all the time, and when I get pushback, I take a step back and try to look at the decision with fresh eyes. I would expect anyone in a position like this to do the same.

[-] FizzyOrange@programming.dev 1 points 2 months ago

Ah yeah I misread your comment. 100% agree.

[-] lysdexic@programming.dev 11 points 3 months ago

Boy, does that group sound like the ultimate bunch of social climbers trying to make a living out of someone else's work.

[-] Theharpyeagle@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago

I think that's a little too simplistic. I definitely agree that "we can't show you the evidence of why we made this decision but trust us" isn't going to instill confidence in the community, but it's not like the steering council is some unrelated board of executives. They're all core developers, theoretically chosen for their dedication and contributions to Python as a whole, and it seems their granted power has made them anxious about showing favoritism among the most seasoned at the expense of upholding the community guidelines that keep the Python community a positive and welcoming place.

I think a flawed decision was made, or at least the way it was presented was flawed, and that should be considered for the next election. Maybe the council does need to be totally overhauled, that's a valid position. But this is their work, too, and imply they have no skin in the game is disingenuous.

[-] moormaan@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 months ago

Interesting perspective. It implies that:

The value of their policy work is significantly below the technical community's contributions value
There is perceived status to be gained by climbing this particular social ladder.

I neither agree or disagree fully, but I believe there is value in good governance of large and diverse projects.

Whether their governance is good is what this whole kerfuffle is all about.