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this post was submitted on 16 Sep 2024
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It sounds like the guy had a knife and threatened to use it. It also sounds like the cops tried to taze the guy first, but it didn't work.
We can argue whether the cops really needed to shoot the guy. But they weren't shooting at a fare evader, they were shooting at a guy with a knife who also happened to jump the turnstile.
I'd argue that the real problem is that the cops didn't know how to de-escalate the situation without shooting. It's like the tazer was their only "non-lethal" option, and when that didn't work, they panicked. (I could also believe that they were simply incompetent, and couldn't work the tazer properly.)
The guy only threatened to use the knife after they stopped him for turnstile jumping. If the New York subway didn't have turnstiles (the L.A. subway doesn't), most people would still pay their fares. Most people understand that their fares keep the trains running. There was no need for this. At all.
I should say that there are transit cops that check tickets in L.A. If you don't have one, all they do is escort you out of the station. And this is the LAPD we're talking about.
Fares make up for about 10% of operating expenses for our trains. User-fees promote a dangerous need to balance yesterday's costs with today's availability, which is ultimately self-defeating.
The LA subway has turnstiles. Most people don’t pay. I’d watch maybe 2/3rds of people skip payment by using the wheelchair/bike turnstile. They would do it in front of cops.
They are starting to enforce fares again though.
If they have turnstiles, that is something they added since I lived there a decade ago.
They have the simple waste-high turnstile at every subway stop. At above-ground locations they don’t have these. They have been there for 15 years or longer.
There are no full height “man trap” turnstiles if that’s what you’re talking about.
I took the train from NoHo to downtown or Long Beach all the time and I do not remember turnstiles. In fact, I remember wondering where they were the first time I did it.
Noho as of this summer now requires you to tap to unlock the turnstile to exit too. They are expanding this to other red/B line stops.
DTLA 7th/Fig has definitely always had turnstiles.
Long Beach has not had turnstiles.
When he got there the conductor told him "one more nickel," Charlie couldn't get off of that train
The first step to "escorting you out of the station" is stopping you, is it not?
My whole point is that the cops didn't get belligerent until he pulled the knife. It also sounds like he might have boarded a train with the knife out, too. (It was the L train, though, I'm sure the riders have seen worse.)
They didn't start shooting because he jumped the turnstile. I bet if he didn't have a knife they would have just wrote him a ticket and made him leave.
You dont think your LA cops would have treated their fare evader a bit differently if he pulled a knife?
Yes, stopping you to say, "can I see your ticket?" If the person without a ticket runs, where are they going to run to? Back on the train that just left? They can't do that. Out of the station? That's where they were going to be taken anyway. It's not worth the cops' time in L.A. like it apparently is in New York.
Again, this shit doesn't happen there.
But it sounds like the guy said "I'm gonna kill you if you don't stop following me", then hopped on the train with the knife out. You think the cops in LA would have let him do that?
You show me when this sort of situation has ever happened in L.A.
Because believe me, there are plenty of crazies with knives in L.A. too.
Didn't it literally just happen there like two weeks ago when LAPD TSD used force against someone evading fare and they ran, jumped onto the tracks, and were then electrocuted and run over by a train?
LA metro rail has yearly ridership of a little less than 62 million.
NYC has yearly ridership of over 1.3 BILLION.
These aren't remotely the same systems.
You don't get to pretend two train systems are not similar because you write BILLION in all caps and bold.
Thank you, by the way, for so clearly representing yourself in your post history. You're doing this old man a service by making it so obvious that you are continually arguing in bad faith.
K
Yes, let's look to the LAPD for better policing practice. Wow.
That was my point though. Even the LAPD isn't this bad.
Do we actually know if he had a knife? Initial reporting was that the police knew he had a knife because he refused to take his hands out of his pockets. While he did threaten them, it was contingent upon them continuing to follow them. He did not actually attack them until after multiple officers attempted to tase him. Furthermore, so what if he had a knife? As far as we're aware, he's got a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. Being armed isn't an excuse to be killed by cops because you are generally explicitly allowed to be armed.
All in all:
While that is textbook escalation, it really doesn't seem like they shot him cause he had a knife. They shot him (and 3 others) cause he didn't care about their authority and they couldn't let the guy that was already on the train go. And all that came about because he tried to skip a fare that costs around the same amount as the bullets fired.
You know they lie to cover their own asses, right?
Yes, but this time their body cams seem to have worked. Amazing how that happens when it shows things that can justify the cop's story?
And yet they didn't release the footage. Either there's no knife or the behavior of the police was outrageously incompetent. If they were justified they'd be tripping over themselves to show it.
It only happened yesterday, if the footage backs up the cop's story it will get released eventually.
Big IF
So it won't?